The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop

Eldrazi may not have been "eradicated"...but it was certainly hurt badly losing both chalice and thorn as opposed to Workshop decks that could just replace with ravager and ballista and move on relatively unscathed. Fish also took a wallop. Chalice was always a 4-of for me in 95% of fish builds I made/ran. It was the best weapon vs storm and blue 1-drops.

@nedleeds When your entire deck is made of artifacts, it IS a lotus land. You can't possibly think a land that taps for 3 that can cast every spell in your deck is on level with every other unrestricted land in the format (save perhaps bazaar, which I'd also restrict).

@thewhitedragon69 Chalice of the Void was restricted September 28th 2015 and Battle For Zendikar was released October 2nd 2015. There was never a vintage format where Thought-Knot Seer decks had access to 4 Chalice.

@hierarchnoble Darn you, you beat me by seconds? haha

Anyway, here's another article to b ring to the discussion.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/bans-unbans-and-restrictions-in-legacy-and-vintage-whats-the-right-approach/

@hierarchnoble True, my bad. I was mainly thinking about both hurting fish and thorn hurting eldrazi...yes, chalice was never in eldrazi as a 4-of. My point still stands that restricting shop tools has had an impact on other budget decks while doing next to nothing to nerfing workshops. I really can't understand why everyone is okay with restricting a slew of artifacts instead of unrestricting all of them and restricting one too-broken land. My only guess is $$$. It's still a reserved list ancient card. It will still be worth $800 if not the $1000 it currently is.

@thewhitedragon69

I don't think the dollar value of Workshops is something to be concerned about nor do I think vintage players are concerned about Workshop being devauled in worth. Workshop is an EDH allowed card, so there is demand elsewhere.

Anyway. Let's say a player (let's call him Rusty Brown) owns only a vintage workshop deck. Let's say this disenfranchises him to the point where he doesn't want to play shops anymore and decides to go into blue. Does not own any other power, owns no forces, no fetches.

Mishra's Workshop (3) = 3,000 dollars.

Time Walk (1) = 1000
Ancestral Recall = 1000
Force of Will (4) = 300
Underground Sea (4) = 1500
Volcanic Island (4) = 1500
Tropical Island (4) = 1000
Tundra (4) = 1000
Scalding Tarn= 300
Misty Rainforest = 120
Polluted Delta = 60
Flooded Strand = 60

Let's say you want to build a Grixis deck. Typical builds I had in the past had 6-7 fetches (let's go with the conservative 6- so 4 Scalding Tarn and 2 Polluted Delta), 3 Volcanic Islands, and 2 Underground Seas, 4 Force of Wills. You would also need Ancestral Recall and Time Walk. With my estimates above:

+3000 - Workshop
1000 - Time Walk
1000 - Ancestral Recall
1125- Volcanic Island
750- Underground Sea
300- Force of Will
300- Scalding Tarn
60- Polluted Delta

3000 - 1000 - 1000 - 750 - 1125 - 750 - 300 - 300 - 60 = -2,285

That's roughly 2,285 more dollars they would need to pay. That's not counting the creature package, draw spells, flusterstorms, side boards, tutors, etc. Not to mention this gets way worse if you want a Library of Alexandria in the deck.

If you go with a cheaper land base, say, a pure u/w deck.... with a conservative 6 fetches.

+3000 - Workshop
1000 - Time Walk
1000 - Ancestral Recall
1000- Tundra
300- Force of Will
60- Flooded Strand
30- Polluted Delta

3000 - 1000 - 1000 - 1000 - 300 - 60 - 30 = -360

A much more feasible 390 dollars would need to be paid. Obviously, if you don't need all the Moxes, you could theoretically sell those, but as a vintage player I wouldn't recommend it. And either way, you may be stuck playing a blue deck you really don't want too.

This is obviously taking a lot of assumptions, so this isn't perfect but it's an example. This would most likely be my situation, except for luckily I own Time Walk and Ancestral Recall.

*EDIT: This is why I could see this driving Workshop players away from the format. I went through a lot of personal sacrificies, my collection, spare money, to pick up the workshop cards. It would be very hard for me want to sell and buy something else. I may just sell off my paper at that point, proxy decks when I want to play at RIW, say screw Eternal Weekend, and just play online. I may also not, but that's all possibilities.

last edited by mdkubiak

@thewhitedragon69 Yeah. I've heard this reusable Lotus argument a lot. Problem is... it's just not reusable Lotus. It only summons artifacts, narrowing what can be played enormously. I get that Shops players therefore only run artifacts... but right, they only run artifacts. So it isn't Lotus.

Making the argument that Workshop should be restricted purely on power level is fine, I guess. I don't buy it at all. But I'll say that it's a makeable argument. Personally, I don't think anything that isn't causing a huge and unpunishable advantage, as evidenced by matchups, should be restricted. But that's me. In any case, I think the standard should be about metagame effect, rather than perceived power of single cards, out of context...

(For illustration of this point, look at Oath. On a pure power level, that card is busted. It's way more powerful by itself than say... Ponder. I'd say anyways. So you could make the argument that it should be restricted on spec. But let's say they go ahead and print Cage and Containment Priest. Now Oath in practice got a lot worse. But if we are using the raw power standard, it should still be exactly as restrictable as it was before. But we know that with the printing of other cards, it's effect on the meta is greatly diminished. Which is why a raw power test just doesn't make sense.)

SO, firstly, Shops just isn't Lotus anyway. But also, that sort of raw power test for restriction is too simplistic. It should really all depend on the relationship between what can be cast off the Shops vs. how well non-shop decks can punish a deck that just summons artifacts... Right now the scale is tipped, I would argue slightly, in favor of the Shops deck... big deal. Welcome to MTG.

Leave it alone and keep printing cards. This thing is not... absolutely not, a reusable Lotus.

last edited by Topical_Island

@mdkubiak OR, let's say this Workshop player keeps playing the same deck +3 chalice, +3 thorn, +3 golem +3 ancient tomb.

-3 Workshop = +$3000
+3 golem = -$3
+3 tomb = -$60
+3 chalice = -$200
+3 thorn = $-60

+3000 -3 -60 -200 -60 = +$2677.

You were saying???

I don't think -3 shops makes workshops unplayable, especially when you add back in 4 chalice, 4 thorn. It takes it down a peg, sure, but it's hardly unplayable.

@thewhitedragon69 right, I’m not saying saying it’s not a feasible deck or that’s not where they’d go. However, that is one path they could take.

*EDIT: Back at my desk. Anyway, I was laying out what players would do if they were so pissed off about the shops restriction they refuse to use the archetype anymore. They would be left to the wayside unless they want to go the Dredge. Obviously if they stuck out with the artifact deck, they would make money, but I would say that is pretty obvious. People who are playing vintage aren't exactly worried about making their money back.

last edited by mdkubiak

@thewhitedragon69 said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@nedleeds When your entire deck is made of artifacts, it IS a lotus land. You can't possibly think a land that taps for 3 that can cast every spell in your deck is on level with every other unrestricted land in the format (save perhaps bazaar, which I'd also restrict).

I can't imagine an honest comparison between the library of colored spells and all stars like a 3/2 with no protection and a 1/1 for 2 that dies to every piece of removal ever printed. The comparison isn't valid. Demonic Tutor, Ancestral, Time Walk, Plow, Bolt, Mana Drain, Will, Jace, Dig, Cruise, Oath of Druids.

People lost to this aggro shop deck because they couldn't ever win game 1, shops was ~17% against a field of 65% of decks with 4-6 complete duds in their main deck. Additionally like any creature swarm aggro deck in the history of magic the way to beat it is sweepers and X for 1's. So in game 2 people are still trying to fight 26 creature decks with 1 for 1 trades. We have people boarding 3 Nature's Claims and no Forest? 1 Basic and you think you'll resolve Energy Flux?

@topical_island People compare it to reusable lotus in that it taps for 3 and doesn't sac. Fine...it's not reusable lotus. It's a land that taps for 3 where every other land taps for 1. That's still not even close to even. You can only cast artifacts? So what...chalice, sphere, thorn, golem, ballista, ravager...these are all fantastic cards. The only reason Workshop decks are the only ones that run them are because they are the only decks that can cast them on turn 1 with their broken land. If these all cost 1 and 2 mana so that non-shop decks could cast them on turn 1, probably every deck would just be these cards and some irrelevant color land. People make it like these tools are garbage cards and workshops is forced to play them because they can only cast artifacts. On the contrary, these are very good cards and only Workshops has ACCESS to playing these spells 2 turns too early to be fair.

@thewhitedragon69 said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

Eldrazi may not have been "eradicated"...but it was certainly hurt badly losing both chalice and thorn as opposed to Workshop decks that could just replace with ravager and ballista and move on relatively unscathed. Fish also took a wallop. Chalice was always a 4-of for me in 95% of fish builds I made/ran. It was the best weapon vs storm and blue 1-drops.

Now you've lost me. Are you talking about Emrakul the Aeons torn Chalice combo? Chalice was restricted before TKS and the other 'NewDrazi' were printed. Did you even play then? How could you not know this if you did or if you ever played Eldrazi. Chalice wasn't a universal 4 of in BUG Fish decks, take the BoM winning and top 8'ing lists of their era. They played Null Rod and minimal power with a the suite of DRS and beaucoup removal. They were at least even with the 4 LSG, 4 Chalice shop decks of the day.

edit: looks like I should refresh the page ...

last edited by nedleeds

@nedleeds I'm not even taking this last tournaments results into consideration (though I could, and it would bolster my argument). I'm just looking objectively at the power level of the card compared to everything else that's unrestricted. It's not even close (again, bazaar aside). Workshop is head and shoulders above what any other unrestricted card can do and makes Workshops head, if not shoulders, above every other deck.

And this is from a guy with 4 shops who made his major mark in vintage with The Man Show and The Riddler....both 4x workshop decks. I actually mostly play Workshops in Vintage, with temporary forays into Oath just to change it up. I have had a very pronounced distaste for blue spells, blue cards, and counter magic in general, which is WELL documented on this forum. Even still, I can't look at workshop as anything but WAY overpowered. If they restricted shops and gave me back chalice, thorn, and golem, I'd add 3 ancient tombs and be more than happy.

@nedleeds Yeah...addressed this a while back. I was mainly referring to fish losing both cards and eldrazi losing thorn. I lumped them both together in my wording however. My bad.

@thewhitedragon69 said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@nedleeds I'm not even taking this last tournaments results into consideration (though I could, and it would bolster my argument). I'm just looking objectively at the power level of the card compared to everything else that's unrestricted. It's not even close (again, bazaar aside). Workshop is head and shoulders above what any other unrestricted card can do and makes Workshops head, if not shoulders, above every other deck.

And this is from a guy with 4 shops who made his major mark in vintage with The Man Show and The Riddler....both 4x workshop decks. I actually mostly play Workshops in Vintage, with temporary forays into Oath just to change it up. I have had a very pronounced distaste for blue spells, blue cards, and counter magic in general, which is WELL documented on this forum. Even still, I can't look at workshop as anything but WAY overpowered. If they restricted shops and gave me back chalice, thorn, and golem, I'd add 3 ancient tombs and be more than happy.

You'd add 3 Ancient Tombs? The deck already plays 3 Ancient Tombs. I'm not sure we can see eye to eye. So I'll just agree to disagree with you rather than drag out the dialog.

@nedleeds Add a 4th tomb and a city of traitors...whatever. I never ran more than 1 tomb with my 4 workshops. 4x waste, strip, tolarian, 1 tomb, 4 shops + other mana lands (+ 8 solomox crypt) was always fine for me. If you run 3 tombs already, then great. Add a 4th tomb, a city of traitors, and 1 other land...maybe a ghost quarter to have 6 strip effects. Still not seeing how it makes Mishra's Workshop not a ridiculously overpowered card.

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