The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop

@thewhitedragon69 said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

Eldrazi may not have been "eradicated"...but it was certainly hurt badly losing both chalice and thorn as opposed to Workshop decks that could just replace with ravager and ballista and move on relatively unscathed. Fish also took a wallop. Chalice was always a 4-of for me in 95% of fish builds I made/ran. It was the best weapon vs storm and blue 1-drops.

Now you've lost me. Are you talking about Emrakul the Aeons torn Chalice combo? Chalice was restricted before TKS and the other 'NewDrazi' were printed. Did you even play then? How could you not know this if you did or if you ever played Eldrazi. Chalice wasn't a universal 4 of in BUG Fish decks, take the BoM winning and top 8'ing lists of their era. They played Null Rod and minimal power with a the suite of DRS and beaucoup removal. They were at least even with the 4 LSG, 4 Chalice shop decks of the day.

edit: looks like I should refresh the page ...

last edited by nedleeds

@nedleeds I'm not even taking this last tournaments results into consideration (though I could, and it would bolster my argument). I'm just looking objectively at the power level of the card compared to everything else that's unrestricted. It's not even close (again, bazaar aside). Workshop is head and shoulders above what any other unrestricted card can do and makes Workshops head, if not shoulders, above every other deck.

And this is from a guy with 4 shops who made his major mark in vintage with The Man Show and The Riddler....both 4x workshop decks. I actually mostly play Workshops in Vintage, with temporary forays into Oath just to change it up. I have had a very pronounced distaste for blue spells, blue cards, and counter magic in general, which is WELL documented on this forum. Even still, I can't look at workshop as anything but WAY overpowered. If they restricted shops and gave me back chalice, thorn, and golem, I'd add 3 ancient tombs and be more than happy.

@nedleeds Yeah...addressed this a while back. I was mainly referring to fish losing both cards and eldrazi losing thorn. I lumped them both together in my wording however. My bad.

@thewhitedragon69 said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@nedleeds I'm not even taking this last tournaments results into consideration (though I could, and it would bolster my argument). I'm just looking objectively at the power level of the card compared to everything else that's unrestricted. It's not even close (again, bazaar aside). Workshop is head and shoulders above what any other unrestricted card can do and makes Workshops head, if not shoulders, above every other deck.

And this is from a guy with 4 shops who made his major mark in vintage with The Man Show and The Riddler....both 4x workshop decks. I actually mostly play Workshops in Vintage, with temporary forays into Oath just to change it up. I have had a very pronounced distaste for blue spells, blue cards, and counter magic in general, which is WELL documented on this forum. Even still, I can't look at workshop as anything but WAY overpowered. If they restricted shops and gave me back chalice, thorn, and golem, I'd add 3 ancient tombs and be more than happy.

You'd add 3 Ancient Tombs? The deck already plays 3 Ancient Tombs. I'm not sure we can see eye to eye. So I'll just agree to disagree with you rather than drag out the dialog.

@nedleeds Add a 4th tomb and a city of traitors...whatever. I never ran more than 1 tomb with my 4 workshops. 4x waste, strip, tolarian, 1 tomb, 4 shops + other mana lands (+ 8 solomox crypt) was always fine for me. If you run 3 tombs already, then great. Add a 4th tomb, a city of traitors, and 1 other land...maybe a ghost quarter to have 6 strip effects. Still not seeing how it makes Mishra's Workshop not a ridiculously overpowered card.

@hierarchnoble Except I do. I also play oath, sans blue....which most vintage players would consider sacrilege and impossible.

@thewhitedragon69 That sounds awesome. Would you be willing to share a list sometime?

@thewhitedragon69 Typical builds for Shops anymore include 4 Ancient Tombs. I would be extremely weary of playing City of Traitors. My assumption Shops would go to more wasteland type of affects (as you mentioned) or back to Eldrazi lands.

@mdkubiak The city of traitors could work with more crucibles main....which also compliments the idea of more strip lands. 1 shop, 4 tomb, one city, and 9 strip-waste-ghost with 3-4 crucibles main could still be scary - especially with 9 sphere and 4 chalice back in the mix.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69 Dude. Very interested. You should post about it over on the Oath thread.

@thewhitedragon69 that barely works in Legacy though...

@nedleeds (Sean I assume), I'm cross posting this because I'm not sure which platform (FB, EC, TMD) you are the most responsive.

There is a key point which I'm not sure you tackle properly in this article. To my mind, the increase in the average number of Missteps was directly related to the restriction of Chalice of the Void in September 2015.

Blue decks simply got greedier, much lower on the curve and then everybody got stuck playing 4 MM as a consequence of Chalice's restriction.

Before Chalice's restriction, people were much more conscious about spreading their CMC across the curve. Moreover, cards like Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Hurkyl's were no brainer main deck back then as it was the best answer to un-restricted Chalice (and versatile/good against the rest of the field).

In a field full of Chalices, MM made absolutely no sense. That's the key point.

Last, in a field without Chalice, I think people felt safe knowing that they could rely on 4MM if needed to keep in check the Ritual decks. I think that when Dark Petition + Cabal Therapy + Probe decks started popping out. Then Xerox really took over the format but by then 4MM was already everywhere. It all started when Chalice got restricted.

last edited by tribet

@thewhitedragon69 echoing the others, I love unique Oath lists.

Workshop is busted. Superbusted.
but if you play it, you dont play the over iperpowered cards.

That s the point of T1. Strong cards define the meta and the archetipes.

So the point is not how much strong this card is, but how taxing is the deck it enables.

Remember the Trini era ? To survive, blue deck had 5 wastes, extra mana, etc.... Life was miserabile.

Now, is this Ravager Shop so warping? I dont know, but we should give the meta the time to adapt and return to fight brown like we used to in the past .

History of Vintage is kinda like this :
blue fights brown
blue prevails and start to fight other blue
Something got restricted
Return to point one.
At some point trini is printed.
then blue fights brown.
Life is miserable for blue
something brown got restricted

I recently played a League round full of Blue Moon, Oath, and BUG decks. They did just fine against shops.

Workshop is the 2nd best magic card printed in the history of magic. It deserves to be restricted. The free pass bullshit can stop any day now.

@bobbyvictory Good analysis. I hope it's cited in the restriction explanation... also, 100th thread post. Boom. I win. Pay me my tote-bag.

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