The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop

@stormanimagus You Force the Inspector when you have turn 2 Oath of Druids? Noah, I'm pretty sure you're shouldn't be the judge of which Blue players are competent or not....

@chubbyrain

Blind? Sure. There’s no guarantees that they have a sphere at all and certainly not on turn 1 if inspector didn’t resolve. You are missing the forest for the trees. The forest is their clock, which is dangerously fast with mr. inspector. Without it one can trust an oath deck to get to 3 lands by the time it matters. With it in play all bets are off and insane speed is no a possibility. Remember that sphere hampers their speed as well with no inspector in play and their ability to lethal you. I have the same problem with players who don’t force Lotus vs blue only to get blown out by multiple threats the following turn. Again, do not conflate my comments with this particular scenario where the shop player kinda had it all and also topdecked like a champ. Understand that I’m playin the numbers and making the play that wins me the majority of games.

@stormanimagus Yes, Inspector is a good card. No, you don't blind Force it. It's contextual and I have played many more competitive matchups against Shops with Blue decks than you have. Having a turn 2 Oath of Druids on the play is one such instance when I wouldn't do so. Please stop assuming 70% of Vintage players are morons.

last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain

I only do cause they repeatedly demonstrate that they are. Sorry, but i also have a lot of experience with the matchup and your line is frequently incorrect even if you have a turn 2 Oath. It really depends on your hand and the other support cards you have though. Sorry, not backing down on this.

last edited by Stormanimagus

It is absolutely possible for two people to disagree on a line of play without calling each other names. Please find a way to do so.

Are people still calling for a Shops restriction or did this blow over? My personal feeling was that blue decks just needed to start playing 8+ artifact hate spells between the main and SB. I think you're starting to see that now.

Take this Grixis Pyromancer deck (6-0 Vintage Challenge Dec 02, 2017): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/847695#paper

MD: 1 Dack Fayden
SB: 4 By Force, 3 Shattering Spree, (1 Mountain)

And this Team Leovold deck (6-0 Vintage Challenge Dec 16, 2017): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/861860#paper

MD: 2 Dack Fayden, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Kolghan's Command
SB: 1 EE, 3 By Force, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Ancient Grudge

I think Kolaghan's Command and Abrade are underplayed and so are wrath effects.

I also support the Mental Misstep restriction-- to me it ticks all the boxes: (1) too good, (2) not fun, and (3) format warping/homogenizing. But I'm willing to see how the format evolves.

last edited by hyperborea

@hyperborea This strategy really only works if you believe in vintage being a binary format (maybe trinary if you count dredge) between shops and blue. The argument from many people is that the very existence of Shopsx4 keeps decks out of the format.

I think this debate still rages in the hearts and minds of everyone, it's just that everyone made their point and really all we can do is wait for the banned list announcement or a new set to come out with some other card that contributes to the discussion. Otherwise nothing has changed much and everyone is just beating the horse.

The meta's been drifting a bit. Shops is less prevalent/dominant at the moment (compared to a month ago), Oath is enjoying a lot of popularity, and blue decks are finding new and inventive ways to murder each other.

@protoaddct said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@hyperborea This strategy really only works if you believe in vintage being a binary format (maybe trinary if you count dredge) between shops and blue. The argument from many people is that the very existence of Shopsx4 keeps decks out of the format.

I think this debate still rages in the hearts and minds of everyone, it's just that everyone made their point and really all we can do is wait for the banned list announcement or a new set to come out with some other card that contributes to the discussion. Otherwise nothing has changed much and everyone is just beating the horse.

The best cards in the format are blue or artifact so the impression of binarism makes sense, but I think the issue is more about strategic diversity, and Shops plays a very important role as the tier 1 aggro deck in the format. For many, many years aggro simply was not respected in this format. I think more people just need to adopt the modal artifact destruction cards like Abrade and Kolghan's command and Shops will feel less OP. Oath is another way of preying on aggro decks, as Winterstar mentioned.

@hyperborea The best cards in the format are blue and workshops (and bazaar) would be my argument to you. Many of the artifacts that are very powerful are so because of the existence of Workshops as a 4 of. This is long established.

I do agree that people who play the format tend to want to play linear decks that think about answers and hate as a secondary consideration, and people can be slow to adapt even though the adaptation is there, but ultimately I still believe that vintage is a format of pillar strategies, and those pillars are dwindling because of the strength of others.

I remember when I started playing again, back around M10, Rituals were considered one of the pillar strategies, and it is now an afterthought at best. In the time since then ritual/storm has gotten very few new cards to supplement or strengthen there strategy, and the one prominent one (Gitaxian probe) got restricted, where as:

Blue based decks got Treasure Cruise, DDT, Mental Misstep, Delver, Pyromancer, Mentor, multiple Jaces, and more
Workshops got Ballistia, hangarback, Mox Opal, Spyglass, Chief of the Foundry, Steel overseer, Metamorph, Other stuff that has come and gone
Dredge got Sun titan, Bloodghast, Prized Amalgamation, Dragonlord Kolaghan, Elish Norn, Hollow One, Gurmag Angler

Look at other eternal formats of magic, and you'll find at least 10 different decks that are all viable and all play very differently, whereas with our format you really have 3-4 main strategies and then derivatives of them. It is far closer to a binary than those formats.

@Protoaddct I agree that Big Blue has gotten more toys than Ritual based combo as of late, but I don't see how restricting Workshop (and unrestricting stuff like Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem) helps in any way. Isn't the problem stuff like Mental Misstep then?

If mishra’s workshop is not restricted then phyrexian metamorph and sphere of resistance should be estricted

last edited by caleb

@hyperborea said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@Protoaddct I agree that Big Blue has gotten more toys than Ritual based combo as of late, but I don't see how restricting Workshop (and unrestricting stuff like Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem) helps in any way. Isn't the problem stuff like Mental Misstep then?

The argument is that making workshops less powerful allows other decks to have a chance of seeing play. Workshops alone may not be all that is needed, certainly MM has been in question and could merit it as well, but most people side with restricting the obvious offender first, seeing what happens, and then making more restrictions as needed instead of restricting multiple cards at once.

Restricting workshops could, for instance, make colorless eldrazi a much more attractive option in the format, since right now it does not see play since it is considered a mostly inferior version of what shops was doing. Colorless eldrazi just so happened to be a pretty decent check to decks that run Misstep, since most lists runs no 1 drops, and run Cavern of souls to make FOW much less powerful, and therefore also devaluing MM even further since you cant use it as convenient pitch fodder. So maybe restricting shops has a cascading effect that adjusts the meta so MM is not such a powerhouse.

@protoaddct

Have you been following results of late? Workshop decks are under control so restricting any piece from that deck is utter nonsense. Folks have adjusted, get over it.

@protoaddct said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

Restricting workshops could, for instance, make colorless eldrazi a much more attractive option in the format, since right now it does not see play since it is considered a mostly inferior version of what shops was doing. Colorless eldrazi just so happened to be a pretty decent check to decks that run Misstep, since most lists runs no 1 drops, and run Cavern of souls to make FOW much less powerful, and therefore also devaluing MM even further since you cant use it as convenient pitch fodder. So maybe restricting shops has a cascading effect that adjusts the meta so MM is not such a powerhouse.

Let me break it down into

  1. restricting Workshop making Eldrazi more playable
  2. more playable Eldrazi rendering MM restriction unnecessary.

Regarding 1, restriction of Workshop will not make Eldrazi more (or less) playable, at least I cannot see it how. If I have to make a stretch, it just suggests that the vacant where the Shop decks left will be occupied by inferior choices, be it 'Colorless Eldrazi' or any other decks, but not necessarily make any other deck more competitive or better position. In contrast, storm deck is better positioned if Shop decks are gone.

For point 2, if Shop occupied more 50% of the meta, MM will be irrelevant more often than not as well.

@stormanimagus said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@protoaddct

Have you been following results of late? Workshop decks are under control so restricting any piece from that deck is utter nonsense. Folks have adjusted, get over it.

I have been following the results for the last 3 years or so. Shops tends to Ebb when there are not huge events and then is resurgent when it matters. People try other stuff in the off seasons, does not make the top 8 results of the major events any less prominent if you ask me.

When sphere and metamorph is restricted, you will still have 5 sphere effects: sphere, thorn, metamorph, lodestone, and trinisphere, not to mention revoker, spyglass, etc.

last edited by caleb

@caleb

The deck will be totally nerfed at that point so no that is not an option. Please stop suggesting ludacrous stuff.

without restricting metamorph and sphere, you’ll have 11 sphere effects. With 12 lock pieces eldrazi can 5-0 a league (montolio). Those lock pieces that montolio used, they are definitely much less effective than shops lock pieces. Plus, it is workshops verses eldrazi temples. That is why shops are decently right now (not counting Oath)

With 5 lock pieces and various other taxing effects, shops will still be very very strong. The state of the game will be much more interactive. Let me give an example. The shops guy plays a sphere, found another one and played it, and then metamorphed another sphere. The blue player’s brainstorm costs 4 and plays maybe 2 spells max before being beaten by artifact creatures. Even with only one sphere brainstorm costs 3. Hollow one and two anglers can win for dredge, 5 sphere effects can win for dredge.

last edited by caleb
  • 197
    Posts
  • 63358
    Views