So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review


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    http://www.mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/so-many-insane-plays-episode-73-eternal-weekend-in-review

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    Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian break down the results of Vintage Champs and interview 2017 North American Vintage Champion, Andy Markiton.

    Contact them at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail them at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

    0:01:00: The Announcement
    0:03:00: VSL Update: UW Pumpkin Spice and Ad Nauseum Tendrils
    0:28:20: Eternal Weekend Tournament Reports: Grixis Daretti & Jeskai
    0:53:00: Interview: Andy Markiton
    1:30:00: Metagame Breakdown and Top 8
    2:08:00: The Workshop Era

    Links:
    Eternal Central Eternal Weekend Coverage

    LSV’s video on Shops

    Brian Demars – Workshop Needs to Go



  • @CHA1N5 @Smmenen Demonic Consultation was the best card in my Bob Tendrils/GWSx deck.

    Card is phenomenal.


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  • Food for thought.

    I think I'm still in a "let's see how things shake out a bit" but if January is the next update, that will give time for things to develop.



  • A compelling case for Workshop restriction. Of course, many artifacts could then come off the list, including as mentioned: Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere, and Chalice of the Void. Memory Jar, too.
    Strategically and tactically, I think Chalice would be fine to come off, but I would hope it stays on since it would still be simply an unfun card. Rich had a turn 1 win on camera where the most relevant thing he did was cast Chalice for 0 on the play.

    Moderator: I know this invokes the B&R list which is supposed to be a no-no, but the OP specifically asked for such thoughts in the podcast.



  • @bazaarofbaghdad

    I believe that if they restricted Foundry Inspector, blue decks would race shops with ease and slower tactics like Energy Flux/Hurkyl's Recall would have a place again. Inspector is acceleration on a stick. It is a reverse Lodestone Golem for 1 mana less and that is almost as good as Lodestone if you're goal is to pump out your entire hand on turn 2. I really think Inspector going would make Workshops have glaring weaknesses to cards/decks in the field because it would severely hamper the workshop deck's ability to "out-tempo" opponents.

    Just my 2-Cents.



  • I'm 100% with Stormanimagus here. Foundry Inspector is the most busted card in Shops (well, except for Workshop itself, of course).



  • The bottom line is are we willing to "have to have" random artifacts restricted every 12-18 months or just cut the problem off at the pass and restrict workshop. Wizards will continue to print artifacts with nary a sideways glance at vintage. When a compelling case case be made for the restriction of at least four different cards (Ballista, Inspector, Sphere, Ravager) perhaps a harder look needs to be given to what is enabling this.



  • I fear a sphere restriction. The games where workshop decks DONT have sphere are much harder, becUse you usually habe to kill 3 to 4 threats by turn 2.



  • @p3temangus said in So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review:

    The bottom line is are we willing to "have to have" random artifacts restricted every 12-18 months or just cut the problem off at the pass and restrict workshop. Wizards will continue to print artifacts with nary a sideways glance at vintage. When a compelling case case be made for the restriction of at least four different cards (Ballista, Inspector, Sphere, Ravager) perhaps a harder look needs to be given to what is enabling this.

    Before 2015 the last Workshop related-restriction was Trinisphere in 2005; the last restriction at all was Thirst in 2009. It was almost a decade only with unrestrictions. Then we got this huge wave of restrictions where a lot of people think some of them were made because of mistakes (like maybe Chalice wouldn't have gone if Golem went first; or Gush/Probe because of Mentor).
    I don't think we're HAVE to restrict anything every 12-18 months. I think we're in a collective mindset right now that wants restrictions above anything else and I think this is a problem. We used to be a community that advocated for restrictions only as the last possible measure. What happened? Did MTGO change the format's pace that much?
    I also don't think there's a compelling case to restrict anything right now. Good thing the next announcement is only in January - it gives time for dust to settle.

    Haven't heard the podcast yet, but going to do that in the next few days.



  • @fsecco I also agree that we don't have to have anything, hence the quotes in my original post. But the vocal social media crusading community feels differently. My larger point is that its only a matter of time before we get a "lodestone golem light" or a colorless root maze or something else printed with 0 regard for vintage that forces the DCI's hand after months of constant complaining.



  • @fsecco said in So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review:

    @p3temangus said in So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review:

    The bottom line is are we willing to "have to have" random artifacts restricted every 12-18 months or just cut the problem off at the pass and restrict workshop. Wizards will continue to print artifacts with nary a sideways glance at vintage. When a compelling case case be made for the restriction of at least four different cards (Ballista, Inspector, Sphere, Ravager) perhaps a harder look needs to be given to what is enabling this.

    Before 2015 the last Workshop related-restriction was Trinisphere in 2005; the last restriction at all was Thirst in 2009. It was almost a decade only with unrestrictions. Then we got this huge wave of restrictions where a lot of people think some of them were made because of mistakes (like maybe Chalice wouldn't have gone if Golem went first; or Gush/Probe because of Mentor).
    I don't think we're HAVE to restrict anything every 12-18h months. I think we're in a collective mindset right now that wants restrictions above anything else and I think this is a problem. We used to be a community that advocated for restrictions only as the last possible measure. What happened? Did MTGO change the format's pace that much?
    I also don't think there's a compelling case to restrict anything right now. Good thing the next announcement is only in January - it gives time for dust to settle.

    Haven't heard the podcast yet, but going to do that in the next few days.

    MTGO is largely responsible. A good amount of the paper Vintage during the gap was proxy which WotC likely pays no attention to. Then in sanctioned paper there was a massive difference because of financial factors. I'd prefer a slower cycle for Vintage given that so little of it is actually played compared to Standard and Modern, which share it's cycle. Anyone care to take a guess? It has to be massive, the amount of reported Type II vs. Type I.



  • @nedleeds I think it was @hierarchnoble himself that said to me on Facebook that now Old School is probably the better format for people who liked the old Vintage pace. I mean, we have a clear schism between people who play only/mostly paper Vintage vs people who constantly play on MTGO. MTGO players demand a faster meta change and are probably experiencing in 6 months what paper players would take 2 years. Imo it creates 2 different audiences and 2 different experiences in the format - something that doesn't happen in any other format that way. It's weird.
    That said, I still think the MTGO crowd should learn to hold their horses a bit longer. We had a bunch of restrictions the last years mainly because of MTGO/VSL constant complaining.

    EDIT: also, I logged in TMD today specially because I thought "Well, if I know SMIP there should be an EW review podcast around now, right?". So glad I was right! :)



  • I really enjoyed this podcast. The interview with Andy was a really nice addition and the Metagame analysis was as always a lot of fun.

    I am very surprised that it took so long for most people to realize that Steel Overseer (Blitzkrieg) Shops is the best variant of Shops and has been for the last 6 months. Also, it’s a very minor point, but Steel Overseer was printed in 2011.

    I know that at the end of the day what matters most is Top8ing and winning, but the difference in an event like this between Top8 and Top16 is razor thin. I don’t know what happened in the “win and in” matches, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the more “explosive” decks won those matchups as a whole. Fatigue is a factor which in my opinion seems to be consistently unsung in large events like this. The value of a deck which can get “free wins” cannot be overstated in an event of this size.

    The tricky part with the B&R Decision is that it’s unlikely there will be any substantial sized paper Vintage tournaments between now and April 2018. This tournament demonstrated the potential differences in Metagame composition between paper and pixel Vintage.



  • @will There weren't many true 'Win and In' situations. @Montolio had to play, but that was the mirror. There were many x-2s, but realistically Eric Vargo was leading that pack by ~3%.

    I came in tenth, and I knew going into Round 10 that my chances were slim, even though I was also on top of the X-2s.

    I agree though - in an event of 400+ players, the Top 8 alone doesn't paint the picture.

    In order to paint what's doing well, I think we have to look at the top 16 or even the top 32 to get an image of the metagame.



  • There were 2 people on 22 points going in into round 10. They both got paired down and both lost, which allowed Eric to make top 8. I think 1 was on BUG fish and not sure what the other was on. So in theory had "win and ins" gone differently, another blue deck would have top 8ed instead of 1 of the shops lists, so wouldn't have changed much.



  • @vnayin said in So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review:

    There were 2 people on 22 points going in into round 10. They both got paired down and both lost, which allowed Eric to make top 8. I think 1 was on BUG fish and not sure what the other was on. So in theory had "win and ins" gone differently, another blue deck would have top 8ed instead of 1 of the shops lists, so wouldn't have changed much.

    I’m pretty sure John Grudzina was on a 4 color Deathrite Shaman fueled deck and Xui Shin said he was playing Turbo Xerox, I think UWR.


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    @will said in So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review:

    I really enjoyed this podcast. The interview with Andy was a really nice addition and the Metagame analysis was as always a lot of fun.

    You're just saying that because he name-dropped you.

    I finally finished the podcast, and have a few takeaways:

    • Andy, I totally get what you're saying when it comes to not being able to recall the play-by-play of matches. You've had the benefit of MODO replays to review lines for years, and I feel like that might have a lot to do with your expertise with the deck. I'm finding I've been getting significantly better at piloting my current weapon of choice (I've gone from not winning a match to moneying with ease in a week) with MODO's replays. Paper events feel more like the performance to MODO's rehearsals with a lack of replays and regularity.
    • As much as this podcast set the tone for B&R in regards to "Brown Stew", it hit an interesting point with "Blue Stew" and the Onslaught/Zendikar fetchlands that I wanted to reiterate here. I don't have an established opinion since B&R speculation doesn't drive my gameplay or financial decisions.
    • It was nice meeting Kevin and catching up with Stephen at Eternal Weekend! I would have loved to reminisce about 5-Color with Kevin a bit more, especially since Old School feels like it scratches the same itch for many players. Give Chaos Orb its proper wording and I'll be there in a heartbeat.

    Overall, this was an amazing episode and amazing interview with Andy. See everyone next year!



  • Really liking the idea of restricting workshop while simultaneously freeing thorn, chalice and golem. It seems that with the rise of the eldrazi we could create a meta where prison is still a major part, but you have several different styles with different strengths. The best example IMO is White Eldrazi as it plays similarly to shops but has positive matchups against some of shops weakest matchups (Oath and Dredge). The saddest part about the thorn restriction IMO was the weakening of Colorless and White Eldrazi which relied on the card but weren't abusive.



  • Still listening to the podcast, but just a quick note: Brian said he didn't have a Titan in that Dig - it was a Stormbreath. He said he'd snap keep the Titan if there was one. (Is that true @brianpk80 ?)


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