So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review

  • @fsecco said in So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review:

    I mean, we all thought Spyglass would be into Shops as a lock piece, but every Shops-expert was able to realize it wasn't what the deck was wanting to do.

    Did people really think this? Jeez, have me on for card evaluations, please...

  • @chubbyrain You were on the Spyglass topic here on TMD, you know very well what everyone thought. It's way easier to be skeptical, but the card had/has potential and would probably be played in a more prison-oriented Shops. I think only shops players realized right away the aggro build was just better.

  • @fsecco It's bad in prison decks, too... And I'm not a Shops player.

  • @chubbyrain I don't know what that's supposed to mean about how players evaluated the card during spoiler season. A lot of people thought it could be something it probably isn't. Is that a problem? I don't get it.

  • TMD Supporter

    Roland Chang & Scheffenecker are both Shop experts & played spyglass at champs. Didnt do well, but are both Shops experts who thought Spyglass had merit.

  • @fsecco The point is that people are really bad at predicting how cards interact in a theoretical metagame. Adding a random Shops expert might add variety and a contrasting viewpoint, but isn't really likely to improve accuracy. Schef and Roland are examples of this. Heck, they even had playtesting and tournament results and still decided to run the card...

  • @chubbyrain Hum, let me clarify though. I'm not at all saying Steve and Kevin should call a "shops expert" when they want to talk about shops. The show is great as it is and they're both very capable of talking about any deck in the format.

    What I mean is that it's hard to understand where the deck would go with a Workshop restriction. Few people saw the power of Steel Overseer; few people gave Foundry Inspector much credit when it was spoiled, etc, etc. It's hard to see where the deck would land if Workshops gets the axe, that's my point.

    If could be that Steve's right and the deck wouldn't suffer much because it's prepared to play with Tombs instead. But there's a great possibility that Shops as an archetype would die and prison-aggro would shift towards the more stable eldrazi manabase. I just wanted to explore that avenue, because I haven't thought of that. Maybe having CotV and Thorn back in an Eldrazi shell would create a prison deck good enough to still keep fast decks in check like Shops does today. That's an interesting thought that could mitigate an eventual WShop restricton.

  • @fsecco Reasonable. One way to think about it is how many games are they winning now when they don't draw Shops. I've been trying to pay attention to it and it's definitely down a bit. They are less explosive without Shops and generally require restricted cards like Academy and/or Mana Crypt the insane draws. I'd put it in the 40% range.

  • @chubbyrain I may be completely off on this, since I don't play MTGO, but I really thought this deck was less reliant on Workshop. Workshop allows the crazy turn 1-2 plays, but it can be very fast even without it. Maybe old iterations felt like they didn't need it that much because they could drop lock pieces and have more time to draw it? I really don't know. At least in CMC this feels the cheapest Workshop deck ever. It's like Andy said in the interview: it's built to survive being Wastelanded, and can even survive through Crucible.

  • @stormanimagus
    My thoughts as well. I mean, Lodestone Golem then amethyst took a hit because it was so one sided in Shops current mode. Inspector is the problem now. Maybe even Ballista as well.
    Either way, I'd rather the format "fix" itself.

  • TMD Supporter

    @ten-ten said in So Many Insane Plays – Episode 73 – Eternal Weekend in Review:

    Either way, I'd rather the format "fix" itself.

    I want to preface this I have a lot of respect for Kevin and Steve's opinion and always enjoy the podcast. I don't always agree with their assessments, but that's true for anybody really.

    Whether I like it or not, I do think we are staring down the barrel of a Workshop restriction. I believe it is just a matter of time more than a matter of if. From an MTGO perspective, I think it makes a lot of sense. From a paper perspective, I'm a lot less keen on it.

    Regardless, I really enjoyed the Andy interview. That made the podcast more interesting and fun to listen too. Good job on that.

  • @fsecco It is less reliant on Workshops. The older decks were more dependent on the mana boost from Workshops to negate the symmetry of Spheres. That said, the current deck's strength is its speed and going from 4 Workshops to 1 definitely would impact that. It's still explosive but less explosive, and that means some of the games where it has exactly enough pressure to get there, it ends up short.

  • TMD Supporter

    Even though I'm against the restriction for reasons posted elsewhere, I don't think the deck would be dead. It may not be a great strategy anymore, but that doesn't mean it can't be good. It certainly will drop off in quality, there is no way around that.

  • @chubbyrain I totally agree. That why I'm hinting that's perfect possible that an eldrazi manabase would be just better. :)

  • @mdkubiak That would be the purpose of a restriction.

    This new iteration of Workshops feels very similar to Ravager affinity in Mirrodin standard and present day modern. That deck was and is really good in both of those formats. This version in Vintage is playing a similar strategy with better disruption and access to the power nine and I think that is enough to be tier 1.2 in Vintage. If it's not I expect Lodestone Golem would be unrestricted and possibly (hopefully) chalice of the void as well. I don't think there is any question that Thorn of Amethyst would come off the list alongside a restriction of Mishra's Workshop.

    Does anyone remember the deck titled "Worse Than Fish". It was essentially the blue green madness deck from Oddessey standard with the power nine and Umezawa's Jitte sewn into it. I feel like this iteration of Mishra's Workshop decks is just Ravager Affinity with the power nine and some newer printings sewn into it but then it has access to four additional Black Lotus lands on top of that. I expect it would still be top tier without all four of them, especially if Thorn and Lodestone, were unrestricted.

  • @aaron-patten I agree with the majority of this, but I doubt that Chalice will ever be unrestricted. It makes for a miserable play experience, warps deck construction, and increases the importance of the die roll even more than the Sphere effects. As long as the DCI has a vested interest in Vintage as a competitive format, it is unlikely to come off the list.

  • TMD Supporter


    I fully understand the purpose of what the restriction is for. That doesn't mean I have to agree with a restriction or not recognize that if it is restricted that the deck would still be good.

  • Still listening to the cast so I have yet to take it all in, but I've believed that Workshops has needed a restriction for some time now. Just from a very base perspective, it is a reusable black lotus that the deck has 4 of. No other deck gets that.

    I also think for the health of the format it needs to go. As opposed to some opinions on this thread, I think restricting workshop would not kill the archetype, but rather we would see more archetypes spawn because of it. Eldrazi would likely become the defacto prison list, which is perfectly ok because it's slightly more fair than workshops is now (which is why it sees little play), and I think workshops would spread out and do a few other things including something closer to affinity with blue in it (to splash for recall, Timewalk, Thoughtcast, maybe some other stuff), Maybe some sort of tezzerator list, and I suspect something similar to the current robots lists. Drazi would be very much be 2 drop based, or increments of 2, where as shops can still go big by being able to better utilize Sol Ring, Mana vault, Mox opal, and its singleton shop.

    From a financial perspective, copies of shops would become more available, and while I don't think it necessarily opens up the format because the decks would still be very costly, it does make it slightly more open, plus if Eldrazi becomes the prison list of the format that suddenly lowers the barrier to format entry by a lot since tribal eldrazi is a rather cheap list (relatively.)

    Shops continued representation in the format however really does seem to be a signal to me, and honestly I didn't need Eternal weekend to think that.

  • @protoaddct I'll say 2 things about that: first is that no, Mishra's Workshop is not a "reusable Black Lotus". People should really stop making that comparison. We discussed this in other threads so I won't hijack this one on a small thing like that.
    Second, if Workshop is restricted, I think it's imperative to unrestrict stuff that can make Eldrazi actually take its place in holding fast decks from going off. I'd Say Lodestone is obvious, but it doesn't help Eldrazi. Trinisphere might be dangerous actually, so I'd go for Thorn and/or Chalice.

  • @fsecco I'm not 100% sure you need to unrestrict cards, because the format will rebalance into something else and may look very different. Workshops is a very warping presence. That being said I think you unrestrict things simply because they really would not belong on the list anymore and you want to clear it up. Lodestone would not be a problem at all anymore, and I suspect Thorn could come off as well, maybe with some testing first.

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