@rat3de said in Oath:

@AeonSovarius I was thinking that a value oriented Oath deck would probably do better against blue while still dunking on shops.

In a bunch of side events i performed really well with a value oriented build. I played 2 flusters and 1 pyro and 2 grudges and 1 hurkyl's. Played with and without Night's Whisper. Did very well.

@chubbyrain said in Oath:

@aeonsovarius Shops. Dredge. Perhaps a Delver or Young Pyromancer matchup.

Gisela dominates creature combat in a similar fashion to Elesh Norn. Unlike Elesh Norn, it doesn't remove Spirit tokens from play which lets the opponent activate Oath

That's pretty cute.
Is this much better than Blazing Archon in that way though?

With regards to boarding out Oath, it just makes sense that if your opponent is going to board in 5 cards or more against your Oath plan, you seek to reduce the impact of those cards by boarding out copies of Oath. You can then leverage your Planeswalkers or hardcast your creatures while they draw redundant disenchants and Cages. That is a form of virtual card advantage and a concept that most players don't consider.

Definitely. Do you just play control at that point basically? Cause castable Oath targets are great but not all Oath builds play strictly castable ones.

@jimtosetti said in Oath:

It is difficult to pull ahead of other decks in terms of cards in your hand with Oath. This archetype has quite a few viable strategies that each gain an advantage in their own way. The amount of Preordains really impacts how games play out. Fewer Preordains usually requires more Jaces and or Deep Analysis. This is a strategy that can gain card advantage. More Preordains helps to find lands or cards you need.

Have you ever played Night's Whisper? I tried it in the main and liked it, idk if it's good enough. I also thought about couple Painful Truths for grindy matches/mirrors.

I've recently been experimenting with cutting tutors and playing three to four Pyroblasts, three Flusterstorms, and Four Missteps.

You mean with no Forces?

I am a big proponent of Mission Briefing in Oath. Recasting Time Walk or Ancestral Recall can give the deck an edge when it needs it. I almost consider this card as important to the deck as Gush.

Gush is a card i've played with and without to experiment. I don't always like the difficulty in rebuilding multiple colors.

Matt explained when to cut Oath of Druids pretty well below. The other aspect to cutting Oaths is the mirror match. I have found over the years that the best strategy in the mirror is to cut all of the Oaths and side in one to two Nature's Claims and one or two Sudden Shocks. The mirror becomes a game of who can gain an advantage from any Oath on the board by having more Orchards or using Sudden Shock to kill the Spirit tokens under your control. It is also a race to hard cast your creatures. You can still keep some number of Oath's in after game one, but this strategy runs the risk of your opponent using it to win.

I am having difficulty knowing how many to cut.

I had a match where my opponent cut all 4 of theirs and i cut 2, so had a huge do-nothing match and went to time with neither of us resolving our monsters (which aren't plentiful at 2-3 out of 60 cards).

Do i just cut 4 Oaths and play a control match?

@aeonsovarius I've played with both Night's Whisper and Painful Truths in a Show and Tell variant. They work much better here because you are more likely to draw creatures and then have the ability to use Show and Tell to play them. If you draw more cards and you are not using Show and Tell then you will likely need two Jaces plus Chart a Course and maybe See Beyond. I prefer not to use the black draw spells anymore because they are not the best against Shops and have been sub par in other matches.

Show and Tell is a strong card, but I found myself losing to what my opponents would put in play. I actually had Show and Tell resolve against me in the last Vintage challenge. My opponent put in Griselbrand and I put in Leovold, Emissary of Trest. I took two hits from Griselbrand, and then I bounced it with Jace and won. I was actually playing Oath myself with Leovold as a side board card.

The counterspell package always contains Force of Will in this deck. I'm actually still testing theories about certain cards and what they do in certain matchups.

Gush does seem like an awkward card in Oath. I didn't play with it initially, but decided to play with it one day and went 5-0, so I kept using it and continued to put up results. I find this card to be vital to Oath's strategy. It is best used as a mana fixer rather than just something to draw cards with.

I think that Oath would be a fairly difficult deck to play as a first Vintage deck right now. It is probably more complex than it has ever been. I started playing it a long time ago when Tidespout Tyrant was the go-to creature. After that I left Magic until 2010 or 2011, and then played it off and on. After that I played various Oath builds until Brian Kelly created an Auriok Salvagers version using Ancient Grudge. At that time it was probably one of the best decks I had ever played. I eventually took several more brakes from Magic. When I came back I wasn't as successful with the Salvagers version, so I started using a Show and Tell version. I found that it was great for leagues and very poor for constructed tournaments. Oath has struggled as an archetype for quite a while now, but good players have found ways to win with it. Arlin Kord, Sphinx of the Final Word, Deep Analysis, and many other cards have been used, but they really change how the deck works. This makes the deck fairly difficult for an inexperienced person to play on MTGO because of how good the players are there. We have recently gotten new options in the form of Mission Briefing and Niv-Mizzet, Parun. As you can expect, the new options from the last couple of years can present some difficulty when looking for the correct mix.

Recently, I have found that three Preordains are great for creature based match ups because you can find the Oath more quickly. I replaced Ancient Grudge in the main deck with Fire//Ice. I don't really want to go into the details of Fire//Ice and why I play it over other cards, but it is good for cantripping and removing cards like JVP. I've written about Niv-Mizzet, Parun elsewhere on the site, so I won't go into detail about it here. Basically, this card can be hard to play with even for experienced players. I side it out quite often against creature decks. Arlin Kord is still effective, but it is not always effective. Having said that, most of the deck options are not always effective, so you must use your judgement when anticipating the meta you will play in.

I have been experimenting with Leovold and Kambal in the sideboard, and they have been very effective, I have recently cut back to two Pyroblasts because of how strong these cards are in certain matchups. They are great against Storm, PO, the version RWU Xerox that uses more JVP's and Fragmentize, and probably other decks. These are traditionally some of Oath's more difficult match ups, so I am really enjoying these cards. Leovold can be good in the mirror, but not always. I would say you almost have to feel this one out. As far as siding out Oaths in the mirror, the more experienced the opponent, the more Oath's I like to side out.

Sorcerous Spyglass is a card that I have started using again. It is really strong against Survival, JVP, and a variety of other cards. I am really enjoying the utility that it provides.

So, with all of these random thoughts and information, I would say that practicing with every version of Oath from the last four years is a good idea. It will allow you to see why certain cards are played, and when they are included. I would also say that there are many effective Oath strategies at the moment. This presents very interesting deck building opportunities, so I am interested in seeing what players come up with.

@aeonsovarius Blazing Archon doesn't stop Walking Ballista and is much more annoying if it gets Metamorphed. The funny thing about Gisela is the damage reduction/increase occurs in parts and the person taking damage chooses the order in which they are applied. Gisela attacks into Gisela, apply damage reduction (5->2), then damage increase (2->4). Giselas bounce. Attack with 1/1 or ping with Ballista, apply damage reduction (1>0), then damage increase (0->0). MTGO does this optimally, but you should 100% know this interaction if playing in paper. It's non-intuitive, and you are allowed by the rules to screw it up (double damage, then half damage).

And yes, if your version is running 6 drops and Walkers, it was probably designed to become a control deck post-board against decks like Jeskai that are boarding in enchantment removal, cages, and preists.

I said that I would find an Oath deck that works in the current meta and then write something about it. I think my 5-0 league and the second place finish by AdmiralSandman in a challenge with the same list is a good indicator that this variant is strong. In addition, very similar lists have now been doing well in challenges, so I will discuss the deck and some the cards in it as well as strategies. Here is a link to the list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1944762#paper

This meta is full of Karn strategies and much fewer blue decks. The blue decks that are present in relevant numbers are PO and Xerox sporting Narset. Fish is also a competitor, but it is not as common. However, Fish is one the strongest decks against Oath. Survival is another deck to consider. With those decks in consideration I started tuning a deck using new cards for War of the Spark. The deck that I ended up with very much resembles decks that Brian Kelly had been successful with last year.

Eldrazi, Shops, Survival, Fish, and Xerox are decks that the Tinker-Sphinx of the Steel Wind package is good against, so I included it. I also realized how strong big mana decks were, so I used Wasteland and Damping Sphere to combat the mana base while also controlling the tempo of the game. I am not currently using Damping Sphere, but rather one Null Rod in its place and one in the sideboard. The other Oath creatures are Griselbrand and Gisela because Dredge is more prevalent than in the past. These creatures are the best package for aggressive, creature heavy decks. Arlin Kord also pairs nicely with them, and it is especially good in the Dredge matchup.

I'm currently using a fourth Mental Misstep to combat Xerox decks. The fourth Misstep replaced the Mindbreak trap. Xerox runs Swords to Plowshares and Pyroblasts, so the extra Misstep helps Oath protect its creatures and spells. The Xerox deck also uses Narset in a more powerful way than Oath and can protect it better, so adding more Narsets as a response has not been successful for me consistently.

Ashiok Dream Render is a very strong card against PO, Storm, Survival, and Dredge. I have even used it effectively against decks using Inventor's Fair.

The meta has basically been simplified because there are much fewer blue based decks to focus on. Those decks normally prey on Oath whenever possible, so this appears to be Oath's time to shine. I am looking forward to using Wren and Six to recur lands from the graveyard. I think it is going to be a good addition the deck.

I have noticed some things about different decks that are doing well in the challenge. Some people are cutting artifacts and still using Tinker. This is basically a gamble and can make it harder to play against Shops because of their mana taxing effects. Also, players are using Show and Tell. This card can be dangerous for the person casting it because of what the opponent can potentially put in play. So, those are my thoughts on the deck. I believe it is a great choice right now and I have really been enjoying it.

@jimtosetti do you consider the black splash worth it for just demonic tutor?
Whats your opinion on yawgmoths will?
i think it has always been a powerful card in oath strategies, so whats your reason not to run it?

@zathe922 said in Oath:

@jimtosetti do you consider the black splash worth it for just demonic tutor?
Whats your opinion on yawgmoths will?
i think it has always been a powerful card in oath strategies, so whats your reason not to run it?

Well, I will first try to answer the question as simply as possible. I win fewer games without Demonic Tutor, and I win fewer games with Yawgmoth's Will when Sphere effects are more popular. I was using Yawgmoth's Will right before Karn decks really took off and then I cut it.

Sometimes the black splash can be eliminated. Maybe this is one of them. If I were to cut the Demonic Tutor right now it would be an ancient Grudge. The options that Demonic Tutor provides can be very rewarding. I will often Demonic Tutor for Force of Will, Wasteland, and Jace.

If you want to play with Yawgmoth's Will you need to look at the rest of your deck. Some of the best lines include Black Lotus, Oath of Druids, Time Walk, and Ancestral Recall. In general, recasting more draw spells for value in the absence of Oath of Druids is the reason to play Yawgmoth's Will. Right now Narset is fairly common, so Oath has been using fewer draw spells, making the card tougher to include.

@jimtosetti Is Preordain #3 better than a Ponder? Where are you on Mission Briefing after a few leagues? Thoughts on Spell Piece to combat PWs and adding more grudges main?

@pugsuperstar said in Oath:

@jimtosetti Is Preordain #3 better than a Ponder? Where are you on Mission Briefing after a few leagues? Thoughts on Spell Piece to combat PWs and adding more grudges main?

Ponder can be good provided you get some sequence of cards that can be effective in that particular game. It can be a gamble in the early game because you might not know what you need to win yet. Preordain is consistent at finding lands and the Oath of Druids. Ponder is better in decks that use more fetch lands because you can shuffle the extra cards away. Ponder is also better in more dedicated combo decks.

As far as Mission Briefing and a few leagues goes, its more like Mission Briefing after hundreds of leagues. Mission Briefing has a similar function to Yawgmoth's Will. It is harder to cast when there are more sphere effects in the meta.

I started to test Daze to combat Planeswalkers and counter magic, but my experience is that you still lose to turn one Karn when they are on the play. I have some ideas to test when we can use the Modern Horizons cards the might help Oath in tough situations.

Ancient Grudge is very good against artifact based decks and very poor against Xerox decks. You can probably go two ways with the deck. A general strategy for all matches game one, or a main deck that is focused towards particular matches that sides into the other matches in a strong way. However, players have been successful in relevant numbers using multiple main deck Ancient Grudges.

My experience with Spell Pierce has never been good with this deck, but that was when Xerox was a major competitor. I've thought about trying out one Spell Pierce, so maybe I will try it tonight.

I know that myself and many other people are becoming very unenthused with losing to turn one Karn. At this point it highly probably we are making donations to WOTC when we join leagues.

If I figure out anything significant with the Modern Horizons cards I will post the deck lists and card discussion here. My theory with Magic is to test anything that enters you mind as a good idea. You will never find out if they are good ideas if you never test them. My Twitch account name is the same as here, jimtosetti. I play Oath fairly often. Feel free to come deck build with us there. I'm on most days starting anywhere from 5pm -7pm central time.

How are you guys building oath now with misstep restricted and how is it doing overall in the meta?

Less cages to worry about if dredge is no longer everywhere right?

I'm unsure, i have a generic control pile of the regular restricted draw spells and stuff. Playing 1x Griselbrand, 1x Niv Mizzet Parun, and 1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind/1x Tinker.

I've seen Wrenn and Six show up but i'm not sure how great that could be - haven't tried it.

Looking at mtgop8, i do see less cages i think. Just in shops right now, it appears.

I've picked up a set of Force of Vigors to combat the Mystic Forge Karn Lattice bs, but i never got around to putting them into the deck before they were restricted. Now i'm wondering if a couple would still be good, however i don't know what the green count would have to look like.

But i'm down to shop. I started a side gig buying/selling cards and i haven't had so much time to just aimlessly look at vintage content for 6 hours a week, so i've decided i'm just playing Oath no matter what at EW. I'm so unsure of the new shaping up right now.

@aeonsovarius
So what are you using instead of 3 misstep now then?

An extra Pyroblast, Nature's Claim, and a Lightning Bolt. Although Bolt may be sketch, but i figured it pops planeswalkers at a similar rate as Pyro, pops all of Shops creatures at about the same rate as Nature's Claim, as well as Arcanist, Leo, Confidant, C Priest, and Lavinia.

But i also haven't started with any 'stock' list so saying those replaced my missteps probably does not mean that much.

New events posted up on MTGTop 8 gives me some insight to how much i'd like to have Nature's Claim in the main, which is very little in this meta. Shops has declined some.

I thought Abrade could make a comeback for me. I've been trying it but i'm just wondering if i should try playing a Veil of Summer main or something else with a little bit of spice. I'm never happy with it really but it's such a good card.

Spell Pierce, is it fine in Oath? We don't mind going for a long game if we keep the opponent's threats down, but the longer it goes the more likely an opponent can have 2 mana. Miser Mana Drain fine?

3 Pyro in the main is too much or just fine? It doesn't seem too too excessive, but maybe the 4th in the SB is? Jeskai is generally playing 2 or 3, seems to a bit over half the lists are on 3. A recent Oath deck in the league on the 15th took 2nd and was straight up playing 4 in the main (they were also playing 3 abrade and 4 narset)

What's the role of Gush nowadays? I see no one playing it, but i feel like it used to be.

What's the role of black to play DT and Vamp and Will? This is another thing i've seen people come off of to a degree, from the last 2 months about half of the Oath decks were including black still but i've seen a RUG oriented approach.

16 Lands and 5 mana rocks? I had 17 lands and it was definitely causing flood.

My singleton Mana Confluence? I essentially have this instead of a basic Island since i'm playing 4 colors. The life loss can't exactly be ignored but i've really never been disappointed in drawing it. The larger downside may be the lack of a basic.

I really like lightning bolt, and if anything i'd play 2 in the main before i cut the first. That's not crazy is it? Plus one in the side. It's just so good against a fair amount of creatures and Narset.

I would love to try a misdirection again. Veil of Summer seems a bit like it fills a similar role in countering Decay/Trophy, but Misdirection is free and reverses the removal rather than just counter, or snag opposing Ancestrals. Misdirection also snags Fragmentize unlike Veil.

My list, i don't know how to format.

The Monsters Three:
1x Griselbrand
1x Niv Mizzet Parun
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Lands (16):
4x Forbidden Orchard
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Mana Confluence
2x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island

More Mana (5):
5x Moxes
1x Lotus

Draw (10):
3x Preordain
1x Ancestral
1x Gush
1x Treasure Cruise
1x Dig Through Time
1x Ponder
1x Brainstorm
1x Gitaxian Probe

Counterspell (10):
4x Force of Will
3x Pyroblast
1x Mental Misstep
1x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce

Removal (2):
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Ancient Grudge

Planeswalkers (4):
2x Dack Fayden
2x Narset, Parter of Veils

Oaths, Tutors, and other Vintage (9):
4x Oath of Druids
1x Tinker
1x Time Walk
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Any thoughts or recommendations are appreciated!

@aeonsovarius What do you think about Blightsteel over Sphinx for a Tinker target? If memory serves (last time I actually played with Tinker) the choice here is pretty metagame dependent, but just wondering if you'd considered it.

I've played in Oath, Paradoxical Oath, and builds of Oath and Paradoxical that transform. It's a great card! And you know what, there's kind of less Dack Fayden right now so it could be really good. They dodge virtually the same amount of removal, too. I like the lifegain though, and not dying on crackback to dude decks (shops and survival). Maye it could make a comeback, but on the other hand i've cast Sphinx a few times in the last couple dozen games.

Well, in addition to Oko being great in Oath to blank Priest and Cage, as well as forcing them to have a dude, i think Sphinx is better than Blightsteel now more than ever in Tinker builds due to dodging opponent Okos.

Anyone share a list with me?

I think Miharu winning that event drastically changed the landscape of Vintage Champs. I swear its like 20% Oath over here right now!

I haven't had time to play much Vintage lately, but my understanding was that it was a dark time for Oath these days due to the Force of Vigor infestation of the format. Is this not actually an issue?

@evouga Force of Vigor, meet Force of Will. Oath = gg.

Anyone have some tips on how to deal with Karakas?