This would be great in Griselbrand Oath. You could play it for value, or, draw a bunch off Griselbrand then virtually double that number.
Edit: Or PO.
I don't think this is a combo card, as much as a control card you use on the opponent. If you have spirit if the lab, notion thief, or leovold in play and you land this on opponent... bad news.
Then bounce it, so they can't get back their cards and you can do it again.
(I still don't think that makes it playable... but cute maybe.)
I like the applications in Leovold, however for the same cost there is Twister, which isn’t an auto include, so I’m not sure this would find a spot. I guess in a board state without Leovold, this could be better than a Twister which would give your opponent a full grip, so there’s that.
@john-cox Again. If you play it on yourself and bounce it, you lose a bunch of cards. So PO seems non-bo?
@enderfall I totally agree. I think your post pretty much sums up why this card shouldn't see much vintage play. (Not the "it's a bad card" argument.)
Because it doesn't really have much of a place in the metagame. Unless I'm missing some combo, caused by paying it on yourself (which I probably am), I'm assuming we play it on opponent for a Mind Twist effect. But we are already in a world where games are very fast, and creature based, with few decks that want to hold up full hands and say go. Leovold is already good, and needs little help to win. If you are sticking a Leovold against tempo, you've likely already won the game, so what is this really doing in any deck?
And if there is some combo, it still has to be better in the meta than Oath or Paradoxical to muscle it's way onto the playing field... This is a fine card, but I don't see much space for it in the meta. (If I even understand what it does...)
I agree this has no place in the meta, but I think this card is actually very, very strong. Certainly the strongest one I've seen in Rivals so far. I say that because, in a shell that can sacrifice it, it is potentially an insane draw spell OR a disruption piece, depending on what you want.
The key to this thing as a draw engine is that, unlike Jar, you get to keep your bonus hand. So, you cast this dork with, say, 5 cards in hand. Exile your hand and draw 5. If you then sacrifice the enchantment, you get your original hand back and keep the cards you drew. That means this is 3 blue mana (plus whatever burden the sacrifice outlet puts on your deck) to draw up to 7 cards. That's really, really good. Even if you think it's usually only drawing you 3 - 4 cards, that's still a very good rate this side of Ancestral Recall!
And, if you're in a combo shell, you can also spring this on your opponent to force a psuedo-mulligan if they've been sculpting their hand for a bit. That's what puts it above, say, Hatching Plans in my book.
Personally? I'm sticking these in my Auratog / Parallax Wave casual deck. But, I think this is powerful enough to form a core of some kind of weird rogue deck in Modern or Legacy.
EDIT: And, of course, this card blows nuggets if you draw it without other cards in hand...
In a shell with 4X Pyroblast and 4X Snapcaster mage, this may be useful with 1-2 copies. Gush to refill
Can some concoction be made with Trade Routes?
@krikt Seems too mana-intensive to me. Now, if Gush was still unrestricted, then you'd have my attention!
This plus Chains of Mephistopheles seems fun, and that card feels drastically underplayed some times. But yes, I think it is unlikely.
Well I recently discovered the absolute best use for Chains and that’s as a two of in a Bob Tendrils sideboard. It’s very strong against Paradoxical; better than Null Rod and completely one sided for a Dark Petition/Confidant deck. The biggest problem with Chains overall is that you cannot bring it in against Dack Fayden. So it’s a dead card against 85% of the field about.
The idea is you replay it and chain it with a few chaff cards in hand.
The idea is you replay it and chain it with a few chaff cards in hand.
And the time you draw it without chaff cards in hand its a dead draw. I'll repeat what I said in the vintage facebook thread - I'd rather have painful truths than this and I dont really want painful truths.
I'll say it bluntly - this is a crap card for vintage and will see no play. Its dead in too many situations.
I don’t think this effect is worth how hard you have to work for it.
I like this card. Especially if you're already running cards like REB, Fragmentize or disenchant. Flusterstorm can't touch it and I don't see many people wanting to fight over keeping it on the field. It's a more flexible option over cards like PO. We will see.
Is there some kind of tortured Sun Titan Oath deck packing Ray of Revelations that could use this as draw engine, bringing it back every upkeep/attack? I'd probably rather just win with Saheeli, but I can't otherwise see much use for this card.
@sodoyouwearacape Sun Titan really does seem like a fun way to use this. Is there any "Recurring Nightmare but for Enchantments" type card that could be used?
Otherwise, I think the best otherwise-played ways to maximize this card have already been mentioned; REB and white removal spells.
I think this card is better than we're giving it credit for.
Let's say you play this on turn 2 with two lands and a mox, and set aside 4-5 cards. Then, you draw 4-5 cards and Pyroblast the Induced Amnesia to get back those original 4-5 cards.
Hatching Plans is another card very similar that has looked powerful in the past. So with 8 "Hatching Plans", playing 4 Pyroblast, alongside a number of Abjure/Perilous Research/Smokestack, you could have a powerful draw engine.
@MaximumCDawg basically said the same thing
@desolutionist That's what I was saying. The potential upside to this card is really, really high. Like, drawing 4 - 6 cards high. That makes me think its something we should at least keep in mind.
Compared to Hatching Plans:
- Amnesia can be used offensively if you really need to disrupt your opponent to resolve something;
- Amnesia does something by itself, Plans does not.
- Plans does something if you have zero cards in hand, Amnesia does not.
- They cost basically the same, with UU being harder to generate than U2. (EDIT: WHOOPS I AM DUMB)
- Amnesia can help you draw into the sacrifice outlet / REB by itself in a pinch, Plans does not.
On balance, I think Amnesia is a superior card and I'm eager to brew with it.
EDIT: LOL yes I did, Desolutionist!
I agree with that, but Plans is 1U, not UU. It actually has a very desirable mana cost for this meta.
@desolutionist Whoops! I'm dumb. The better casting cost on Hatching Plans actually brings the cards closer together in power level, and that makes me worried... since no one plays Plans...
But Plans has been played to success relative to the testing platforms back then. From my accounts the reason it never took off as a real deck was because you had to build your deck around 4 cards; if you didn’t draw plans, you weren’t doing what you wanted to do. I think having 4 more “Plans” justifies revisiting the strategy,
Playing this card in a league right now. Initial impressions are really impressive. First one goes for about 5-7 cards. Second one draws about 9, and the third one is for 15 (game). Reminds me of Paradoxical in the way that they chain into each other for more and more cards. It's also hard to interact with. The best card it seems against it is Leyline of the Void. The best card to counter is Perilous Research.