[RIX] Blood Sun

  • @topical_island et al: Look at the cards and identify the (1) activated abilities and (2) triggered abilities. You can tell two abilities are different because the text will be formatted into different lines or paragraphs. Moreover activated abilities are templated in the form "Cost: Effect" and triggered ability will start with "When, "Whenever," or "If."

    Ex: Forbidden Orchard

    T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

    Whenever you tap Forbidden Orchard for mana, target opponent creates a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token.

    Two lines, two abilities, one of them activated and one triggered.

    Ex: City of Brass

    Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you.
    Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

    Two lines, two abilities, one of them activated and one triggered. The order of the abilities is swapped for Reasons, but don't be fooled, these are still two distinct abilities.

    Ex: Ancient Tomb

    Tap: Add CC to your mana pool. Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you.

    One line, one (activated) ability. The damage is part of the effect of activating the ability, and not a separate triggered ability.

    Now, once you've identified the activated abilities, check if they're mana abilities. This means making sure (1) the ability could hypothetically produce mana (even if no mana would be produced in the current board state; Tolarian Academy's activated ability is a mana ability even if no artifacts are currently in play), (2) the ability doesn't target (so Deathrite Shaman's land exile ability is not a mana ability), and (3) it's not a loyalty ability (this is safe bet, unless you somehow turned Koth of the Hammer into a land.) Unless it's a mana ability, Blood Sun removes it.

    Next, look at the triggered abilities. Triggered abilities can sometimes be mana abilities (Wild Growth) but I can't think of a single land that naturally comes with a triggered mana ability. Like with activated abilities, a triggered ability is only a mana ability if it (1) could generate mana and (2) doesn't target; in addition, the triggered ability must trigger off of activating another mana ability (Wild Growth), or adding mana to your mana pool (Caged Sun). Not a triggered mana ability? Blood Sun removes it.

    Finally, not an activated or triggered ability? Blood Sun removes it. This includes replacement effects that modify how the land enters play (tapped, with counters, with a required sacrifice, etc), and as of the Ixalan rules changes, the removed replacement effects have no effect on the land entering play.

  • @gkraigher said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    If the rules allow Lotus Vale to enter the battlefield without restictions unders this card, then I assume those same rules mean Lotus Vale can be played under blood moon, put directly into play without sacrificing lands, and as a mountain. Is that right, can someone please confirm this.

    One point to remember: this is a very recent change in the rules. It used to be that Blood Moon did not "kick in" until certain things were already done, due to layers (i think). So, if you remember it working differently you were right.

  • The interaction was also broken on MTGO, last time I checked.

  • I love that this card suddenly takes the "strictly superior" argument that was floating around between City of Brass and Mana Confluence and just ruins it.

  • @protoaddct let’s get real here. Arabian Nights City of Brass was always strictly superior :-)

  • @ribby

    Au contraire.

    At a waterbury once, I had to proxy copies of 5th Edition City of Brass because I only owned a set of Arabian Nights. At the time, the rules stated that City in a Bottle would kill AN cards but not 5E cards.

    Strictly worse, obviously.

  • @evouga Wow... super interesting post. Thank you.

    So how does this interact with Dark Depths?

  • @topical_island said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    @evouga Wow... super interesting post. Thank you.

    So how does this interact with Dark Depths?

    DD would not enter the battlefield with counters.
    You would not be able to activate the ability to remove counters
    The ability to make a 20/20 would never be able to trigger.

    That being said if you play it under a sun and then remove the sun it'll instantly turn into a 20/20, but based on the new rulings on ETB cards it would also do that under blood moon.

    Basically all the same except under the moon you can make R and under the sun you cannot tap for anything.

  • @protoaddct You don't mean but... you mean and. AND it would also work under Blood Moon.

  • @maximumcdawg blood sun doesn't stop the sac from happening. The vale or ruins wouldn't even enter the battlefield without the sac.'
    Errata on these cards prevent this from working. If it were as written on the cards, blood sun would work. As is, it does not. Unless I missed it when errata was removed?

  • So several things jump out at me about this card vs. Blood Moon:

    1. Blood Sun does nothing to stop the true dual lands; on the other hand, it turns off fetchlands completely, rather than just turning them into Mountains. This means that opposing decks are less likely to get color-screwed (annoying if they are holding Fragmentize or similar answers), but more likely to get pinched on total amount of mana.

    2. Blood Sun doesn't do much of anything against Shops (well, it turns Mishra's Factory and Wasteland into Wastes, but if you're running Moon effects in your deck you probably don't care much about opposing Wastelands). A red deck should have no trouble with Shops answers, of course, but these are slots that now need to be dedicated to the matchup, whereas Blood Moon is inherently disruptive against Shops.

    3. Blood Sun replaces itself, making it just a bad, rather than atrocious, late-game topdeck.

    I don't think the third point outweights the first two. Blood Moon on the draw is already miserable when the opponent fetches a basic; Sun won't do anything even when the opponent gets greedy and fetches a T1 dual. Being dead against Shops is yet another big blow against Sun. Yes, Sun is better in some kind of Karoo or Lotus Vale brew, but that sounds too cute to be any good, to me.

  • @brass-man this is why I sold/traded all my Arabian cities in the mid late 90s ad now have no Swedish legal copies.

  • @ten-ten

    The cards were changed with the “blood moon rule” from the last set. Lands look to the board as they are in limbo between hand and battlefield to see what they would be on the battlefield. Just like how shock lands enter play untapped, glimmerpost won’t trigger, nor will the replacement effect for lotus vale be seen since it isn’t a mana ability.

    Under the rules prior to Ixilan, you would be right: but they changed the rules.

  • @gkraigher these new rules seem worse and lazy. Makes no sense with the errata but as written on the card it would make sense. Lazy rules are worse than the errata. Smh. who manages or handles the rules at wotc, again?

  • @ten-ten I hate when the world changes too man... sigh. I wonder what I'll hate tomorrow.

  • @ten-ten Actually, they make more sense. It was weird that despite being a Mountain, under blood moon, they would come in tapped or with some sort of other effect.

  • But it’s only lands. If you cast an enchantment with Thalia 2.0 and Opalescence it comes into play untapped.

    Theros gods are still creatures on the stack even if you lack devotion.

  • Has anyone play tested this thing, in a lotus vale shell or otherwise, to see if it's actually any good in any format? Blood moon is virtually non-existent in vintage, so I wonder if this will be in anything beyond lotus vale.dec. It does little to stop shops or blue control, so I imagine it might be limited in how useful it really is.

  • @vaughnbros what I'm saying is that with the errata on vale and ruins, the sac happens before it would even enter the battlefield. It doesn't make sense for sun to affect these before the sac is made. ETB effects are different. Because...wait for it...its entering the battlefield. Vale and ruins errata acts more of an additional cost to even play the lands, not an ETB effect. It's lazy, like I stated before, to just say under new rules this is also taken care of when in reality it does not.

  • Well that’s the thing. It’s not an additional cost. It’s a replacement effect that modifies how the land enters the battlefield, like permanents that come into play tapped or with counters. I supposed they could change the rules to allow the special action of playing a land to have costs, but that’s not how the rules are now, and it’s an awful long way from “when this comes into play, sacrifice...” to additional costs before even playing the land.



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