[RIX] Blood Sun



  • @protoaddct You don't mean but... you mean and. AND it would also work under Blood Moon.



  • @maximumcdawg blood sun doesn't stop the sac from happening. The vale or ruins wouldn't even enter the battlefield without the sac.'
    Errata on these cards prevent this from working. If it were as written on the cards, blood sun would work. As is, it does not. Unless I missed it when errata was removed?



  • So several things jump out at me about this card vs. Blood Moon:

    1. Blood Sun does nothing to stop the true dual lands; on the other hand, it turns off fetchlands completely, rather than just turning them into Mountains. This means that opposing decks are less likely to get color-screwed (annoying if they are holding Fragmentize or similar answers), but more likely to get pinched on total amount of mana.

    2. Blood Sun doesn't do much of anything against Shops (well, it turns Mishra's Factory and Wasteland into Wastes, but if you're running Moon effects in your deck you probably don't care much about opposing Wastelands). A red deck should have no trouble with Shops answers, of course, but these are slots that now need to be dedicated to the matchup, whereas Blood Moon is inherently disruptive against Shops.

    3. Blood Sun replaces itself, making it just a bad, rather than atrocious, late-game topdeck.

    I don't think the third point outweights the first two. Blood Moon on the draw is already miserable when the opponent fetches a basic; Sun won't do anything even when the opponent gets greedy and fetches a T1 dual. Being dead against Shops is yet another big blow against Sun. Yes, Sun is better in some kind of Karoo or Lotus Vale brew, but that sounds too cute to be any good, to me.



  • @brass-man this is why I sold/traded all my Arabian cities in the mid late 90s ad now have no Swedish legal copies.



  • @ten-ten

    The cards were changed with the “blood moon rule” from the last set. Lands look to the board as they are in limbo between hand and battlefield to see what they would be on the battlefield. Just like how shock lands enter play untapped, glimmerpost won’t trigger, nor will the replacement effect for lotus vale be seen since it isn’t a mana ability.

    Under the rules prior to Ixilan, you would be right: but they changed the rules.



  • @gkraigher these new rules seem worse and lazy. Makes no sense with the errata but as written on the card it would make sense. Lazy rules are worse than the errata. Smh. who manages or handles the rules at wotc, again?



  • @ten-ten I hate when the world changes too man... sigh. I wonder what I'll hate tomorrow.



  • @ten-ten Actually, they make more sense. It was weird that despite being a Mountain, under blood moon, they would come in tapped or with some sort of other effect.



  • But it’s only lands. If you cast an enchantment with Thalia 2.0 and Opalescence it comes into play untapped.

    Theros gods are still creatures on the stack even if you lack devotion.



  • Has anyone play tested this thing, in a lotus vale shell or otherwise, to see if it's actually any good in any format? Blood moon is virtually non-existent in vintage, so I wonder if this will be in anything beyond lotus vale.dec. It does little to stop shops or blue control, so I imagine it might be limited in how useful it really is.



  • @vaughnbros what I'm saying is that with the errata on vale and ruins, the sac happens before it would even enter the battlefield. It doesn't make sense for sun to affect these before the sac is made. ETB effects are different. Because...wait for it...its entering the battlefield. Vale and ruins errata acts more of an additional cost to even play the lands, not an ETB effect. It's lazy, like I stated before, to just say under new rules this is also taken care of when in reality it does not.



  • Well that’s the thing. It’s not an additional cost. It’s a replacement effect that modifies how the land enters the battlefield, like permanents that come into play tapped or with counters. I supposed they could change the rules to allow the special action of playing a land to have costs, but that’s not how the rules are now, and it’s an awful long way from “when this comes into play, sacrifice...” to additional costs before even playing the land.



  • @ten-ten said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    @vaughnbros what I'm saying is that with the errata on vale and ruins, the sac happens before it would even enter the battlefield. It doesn't make sense for sun to affect these before the sac is made. ETB effects are different. Because...wait for it...its entering the battlefield. Vale and ruins errata acts more of an additional cost to even play the lands, not an ETB effect. It's lazy, like I stated before, to just say under new rules this is also taken care of when in reality it does not.

    You're correct in that the current point of the errata on Vale / Ruins / (the poor Alliance lands that got hit in the crossfire) was to make it a replacement effect rather than a triggered ability. However...

    http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/787767-does-blood-sun-shut-of-lotus-vale-etb-effect

    To determine whether Lotus Vale's replacement effect applies as it enters the battlefield, Blood Sun is taken into account (C.R. 614.12). Because of this, since Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield without its first ability due to Blood Sun, it would not have its first ability.

    In other words, your instinct is not wrong, but your conclusion is wrong as of the recent changes to C.R. 614.12. In full text:

    614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities that would apply to it once it’s on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.

    EDIT: Someone put together this handy dandy cheat sheet to what Blood Sun does:
    https://ibb.co/k4rmew



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  • @maximumcdawg Gemstone mine is incorrect on that list. It doesn't sacrifice itself. It just does nothing, even if the Blood Sun is removed. From Oracle:

    If the last mining counter is removed from Gemstone Mine in some way other than activating its ability (such as Chisei, Heart of Oceans), Gemstone Mine won’t be sacrificed but its ability can’t be activated.

    what I'm saying is that with the errata on vale and ruins, the sac happens before it would even enter the battlefield. It doesn't make sense for sun to affect these before the sac is made. ETB effects are different. Because...wait for it...its entering the battlefield. Vale and ruins errata acts more of an additional cost to even play the lands, not an ETB effect. It's lazy, like I stated before, to just say under new rules this is also taken care of when in reality it does not.

    What doesn't make any sense is the Lotus Vale mechanic in first place. Not the layering that prevents its sacrifice. Lands aren't supposed to have a cost associated with them, and they aren't supposed to use the stack.



  • @maximumcdawg said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    EDIT: Someone put together this handy dandy cheat sheet to what Blood Sun does:
    https://ibb.co/k4rmew

    I don't know about this list. He is wrong on Gemstone Mine at the least, maybe more.



  • @protoaddct True. Since we've shown him to have been wrong at least once, we should infer that other things we says are probably wrong.

    Although... I just said that, and I'm wrong all the time...

    This layering stuff is confusing.



  • @protoaddct Fair enough, the list is bunky.

    But, the specific ruling on Blood Sun (and Blood Moon) when applied to Lotus Vale is not bunk. That's legit exactly what the Comp Rules say now.

    I mean, it's not like it matters. No one is going to run a 3 mana enchantment solely for the purpose of being able to run Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins.



  • @thewhitedragon69

    Lotus vale isnt required to make this card a vintage playable card. There are 8 moon lists in the format already. It’s mostly a budget list, but the power lists (which I am personally working on) are pretty decent.

    I’m not sure this card is good enough for Vintage yet. Because it really doesn’t do enough against MUD. I will be sleaving the card up in Legacy however.



  • The list is also wrong about storage lands. Counters on the lands placed before the Sun enters play can still be spent. Same goes for Gemstone Mine, Tendo Ice Bridge, etc.

    Other notes:

    • Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth has no abilities (other than the Swamp’s mana ability to tap for B) but still turns all lands into swamps. This is true regardless of the relative time stamp of Urborg and Sun.
    • Rhystic Cave functions normally.
    • Zoetic Cavern can be cast face-down as a morphed creature as usual. It cannot be turned face-up.

 

WAF/WHF

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