[RIX] Blood Sun



  • @vaughnbros what I'm saying is that with the errata on vale and ruins, the sac happens before it would even enter the battlefield. It doesn't make sense for sun to affect these before the sac is made. ETB effects are different. Because...wait for it...its entering the battlefield. Vale and ruins errata acts more of an additional cost to even play the lands, not an ETB effect. It's lazy, like I stated before, to just say under new rules this is also taken care of when in reality it does not.



  • Well that’s the thing. It’s not an additional cost. It’s a replacement effect that modifies how the land enters the battlefield, like permanents that come into play tapped or with counters. I supposed they could change the rules to allow the special action of playing a land to have costs, but that’s not how the rules are now, and it’s an awful long way from “when this comes into play, sacrifice...” to additional costs before even playing the land.



  • @ten-ten said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    @vaughnbros what I'm saying is that with the errata on vale and ruins, the sac happens before it would even enter the battlefield. It doesn't make sense for sun to affect these before the sac is made. ETB effects are different. Because...wait for it...its entering the battlefield. Vale and ruins errata acts more of an additional cost to even play the lands, not an ETB effect. It's lazy, like I stated before, to just say under new rules this is also taken care of when in reality it does not.

    You're correct in that the current point of the errata on Vale / Ruins / (the poor Alliance lands that got hit in the crossfire) was to make it a replacement effect rather than a triggered ability. However...

    http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/787767-does-blood-sun-shut-of-lotus-vale-etb-effect

    To determine whether Lotus Vale's replacement effect applies as it enters the battlefield, Blood Sun is taken into account (C.R. 614.12). Because of this, since Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield without its first ability due to Blood Sun, it would not have its first ability.

    In other words, your instinct is not wrong, but your conclusion is wrong as of the recent changes to C.R. 614.12. In full text:

    614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities that would apply to it once it’s on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.

    EDIT: Someone put together this handy dandy cheat sheet to what Blood Sun does:
    https://ibb.co/k4rmew



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  • @maximumcdawg Gemstone mine is incorrect on that list. It doesn't sacrifice itself. It just does nothing, even if the Blood Sun is removed. From Oracle:

    If the last mining counter is removed from Gemstone Mine in some way other than activating its ability (such as Chisei, Heart of Oceans), Gemstone Mine won’t be sacrificed but its ability can’t be activated.

    what I'm saying is that with the errata on vale and ruins, the sac happens before it would even enter the battlefield. It doesn't make sense for sun to affect these before the sac is made. ETB effects are different. Because...wait for it...its entering the battlefield. Vale and ruins errata acts more of an additional cost to even play the lands, not an ETB effect. It's lazy, like I stated before, to just say under new rules this is also taken care of when in reality it does not.

    What doesn't make any sense is the Lotus Vale mechanic in first place. Not the layering that prevents its sacrifice. Lands aren't supposed to have a cost associated with them, and they aren't supposed to use the stack.



  • @maximumcdawg said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    EDIT: Someone put together this handy dandy cheat sheet to what Blood Sun does:
    https://ibb.co/k4rmew

    I don't know about this list. He is wrong on Gemstone Mine at the least, maybe more.



  • @protoaddct True. Since we've shown him to have been wrong at least once, we should infer that other things we says are probably wrong.

    Although... I just said that, and I'm wrong all the time...

    This layering stuff is confusing.



  • @protoaddct Fair enough, the list is bunky.

    But, the specific ruling on Blood Sun (and Blood Moon) when applied to Lotus Vale is not bunk. That's legit exactly what the Comp Rules say now.

    I mean, it's not like it matters. No one is going to run a 3 mana enchantment solely for the purpose of being able to run Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins.



  • @thewhitedragon69

    Lotus vale isnt required to make this card a vintage playable card. There are 8 moon lists in the format already. It’s mostly a budget list, but the power lists (which I am personally working on) are pretty decent.

    I’m not sure this card is good enough for Vintage yet. Because it really doesn’t do enough against MUD. I will be sleaving the card up in Legacy however.



  • The list is also wrong about storage lands. Counters on the lands placed before the Sun enters play can still be spent. Same goes for Gemstone Mine, Tendo Ice Bridge, etc.

    Other notes:

    • Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth has no abilities (other than the Swamp’s mana ability to tap for B) but still turns all lands into swamps. This is true regardless of the relative time stamp of Urborg and Sun.
    • Rhystic Cave functions normally.
    • Zoetic Cavern can be cast face-down as a morphed creature as usual. It cannot be turned face-up.


  • @evouga Just curious - but why does this not shut off Urborg's "swampify the world" ability?



  • @thewhitedragon69 not 100% sure but maybe because that is a static effect and not an ability (such as triggered or activated).



  • @thewhitedragon69 layers. Type changes happen on an earlier layer than addition/removal of abilities.



  • @thewhitedragon69 Copied from somewhere:

    Blood Sun and Urborg interact in a different way than Blood Moon and Urborg, which is important to note, due to layers. With Blood Sun, we apply Urborg’s type-changing ability first in layer 4, and then we apply Blood Sun’s ability in layer 6 and remove the ability from Urborg, but that happens AFTER Urborg has already given all other lands the ability to tap for B. Therefore, you end up with an Urborg with no abilities other than tapping for B, and all your other lands which can tap for B or their other colours.



  • Dear Ladies and Gents who know more than I... Has there been a recent card that effects a wider range of cards in a more complicated way than Blood Sun?

    I have 0% confidence even half the interactions will be correctly functioning on modo.



  • Solemnity?



  • @benjamin_berry would be wonderful to see a Boros solemnity/blood sun deck on modo. Try to break the one bug per turn holy grail game.



  • Because Ben probably won't post about it here's his 2-2 Blood-Tribal list from our Vintage yesterday.


 

WAF/WHF

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