[Podcast] SMIP # 74: The 2017 Year in Review & "Moxies" Award Show



  • @sylvanlibrarian said in [Podcast] SMIP # 74: The 2017 Year in Review & "Moxies" Award Show:

    Hiya Steve,

    Great content, as per usual.

    One thing that I think you missed in your analysis of the Gush metagame spike in 2014 (~2h16 in) was the printing of Dack Fayden at the end of Q2 which, coupled with the Delve cards in KTK, made Gush much more attractive.

    Pretty sure the timeline was

    July 19, 2013 - Magic 2014 (Young Pyromancer really begins incentivizing Turbo Xerox, Free Spells like Gush, Probe and Skillstep and Skillstep wars. The blue stew is on the pot)
    June 6, 2014 - Conspiracy 1 (Dack cranks the heat up and the stew starts boiling)
    September 26, 2014 - Khans (Baby, you got a stew goin!)
    January 19, 2015 - Cruise Restricted but the pot is boiling!
    January 23, 2015 - Fate Reforged (Monk becomes an even more insane Young Pyromancer and we're on the road to the most recent restrictions starting with September 2015s Chalice / Dig restriction)

    I've written about the paucity of Gush in prior years. Also about the diversity of Gush powered decks (combo, aggro control). That being said, cards are only evaluated in the pool in which they exist. It's unfortunate (IMO) that things like phyrexian mana and delve "broke" some other cards but maybe it's inevitable.


  • TMD Supporter

    The full timeline is in this article, with data for each Quarter: http://www.eternalcentral.com/understanding-gush-the-final-chapter/

    The graphic in question is:

    alt text


  • TMD Supporter

    Hopefully I will have time to listen someday soon. I've been crossing my fingers for three years that one day I'd be good enough to get something I did featured on this show. I've listened to it longer than I've played the format. One day, world, one day! Thanks for the content.


  • TMD Supporter

    Don't worry - you will definitely appear in my History of Vintage series :)


  • Administrators

    I think I should mention that my cat is named Moxie, and every time this yearly podcast comes out it warms my heart a little.



  • @CHA1N5 I have a stop on my end step.



  • Listening right now - really appreciate the in-depth discussion of the VSL finals, especially considering Reid's wifi cut out when Randy tried to interview him.



  • Ok, finished the cast. Really enjoyed the Star Wars portion. However, a thought: early in the discussion of The Last Jedi, you guys mentioned that seemingly everyone loved it or hated it, with little space in between. I’ll say that I’m one of those undecideds. I found the Luke/Kylo/Rae scenes to be compelling and pretty fantastic. On the flip side, and I think what you guys left out of your discussion speaks to this, the other half of the plot was so monumentally stupid that I can’t say I loved the film. I found the slow-as-fuck spaceship chase to be very tedious, and the entire casino diversion reeked of the worst aspects of the prequels. It’s tough to call something great when you feel like half of it was just a drag that kept you away from the interesting stuff (Ewoks, much?).

    (@Brass-Man obviously feel free to delete this post if you don’t want Star Wars discussion clogging up this thread.)


  • TMD Supporter

    Halfway through, and once again gentlemen, top quality!! The only podcast I listen to, and I thoroughly enjoy it.

    @Smmenen You asked for suggestions for topics that might warrant mention in your History of Vintage series. I haven't read all the chapters yet, but I'll get there. I do recall one meta in particular that I loved. I think it was Andcon 1998? The meta was MirrorU-Necro-Zoo(and burn) and it was an awesome triumvirate, with minor tweaks giving each deck an edge (my favorite was Necro decks running MirrorU technology too!).

    Randy Buehler came in with a super tight necro deck and won the tournament, but there were also some fringe decks well setup to attack all three decks (a Nicol Bolas deck knocked out someones entire hand turn1 in the warmup tourney the night before as an example of one). I (and a few others) ran a Drop of Honey/Abyss/Deadly Insect deck to some success, but it was a great metagame in my opinion. Totally worth mentioning! This was right before Urza dropped his hammer on the entire format and I remember taking a break from Vintage a few months later after losing in a Top8 when Randy (again) T1'ed me two games in a row with Academy. It was almost impossible to find a T1 tournament in the mid-atlantic during that time. As I mentioned, I haven't gotten through the whole series yet, and if you mentioned this already, well done-

    And also, in case you missed it, for your very early history of magic series, we finally got to the bottom of the Top4 from the 1994 World Championships. I still think Zak Dolan's deck is one of the coolest I have ever played (when it works), and certainly should be nominated for your eventual list of the "Top Decks of All Time."
    http://themanadrain.com/topic/672/vintage-history-investigative-report-from-1994-vintage-championships-the-true-decklists


  • TMD Supporter

    This is the first episode of any Magic podcast that I've had to shelve for private listening because my girlfriend couldn't handle the tone of a conversation. This was entirely due to The Last Jedi discussion, which she found to belittle Kevin too much for her liking. I asked her to paraphrase what she said in the car since I couldn't write it while I was driving:

    "What should have been a discussion of what each person took away from the movie was instead [Steve] trying to win an argument and prove that his point was the right point. It was way too aggressive. He took something that should have been a friendly debate about each of their assumptions and tried to turn his assumptions into fact. It reminds me of the lawyers I work with that can't help themselves but approach even casual discussions as something to win. I hope he didn't mean to belittle [Kevin]."

    I hope that will be taken as constructive criticism, and does not completely reflect my personal views. I do understand where she is coming from, but that didn't at all detract from my own experience as I know what roles to expect from Steve and Kevin. I look forward to the remaining 28 minutes of The Last Jedi conversation that I have not gotten to, which may in fact redeem the above statement.


  • TMD Supporter

    That's probably true to some extent. Kevin and I are long time friends, so I'm sure he took it in the spirit in which I offered it and not as belittling.

    But I listened to most of the final podcast, and there were parts of the podcast where we appeared to be literally talking over each other, but which did not occur in real time. Instead, what I think happened was that in the editing process, the two audios were not quite synced up in final edits, and it sounds like we are literally talking over each other when we were not in real time. Kevin confirmed this.

    Even a half second off between the two recordings can do this. That may have contributed to a seemingly 'aggressive' chat.

    I also suggested that Kevin trim or edit down the section where we were discussing the 'nature of the Force,' after the recording, as some listeners might not enjoy us rambling off point for so long, and as it was probably a bit more combating than some more sensitive listeners might appreciate. Kevin and I have a much higher tolerance for that kind of debating than some people, but Kevin made the final decision to not edit it down because he thought it was interesting and not as painful as I thought it might be.

    Also, this was a really, really long recorded we did in one evening, and in the final hour or so, I was getting really tired, and probably less patient.

    I don't think we've ever had a 'perfect' podcast, and it's especially hard to make it flawless when you are talking for so long that the final recording is nearly five hours.



  • @hierarchnoble said in [Podcast] SMIP # 74: The 2017 Year in Review & "Moxies" Award Show:

    "What should have been a discussion of what each person took away from the movie was instead [Steve] trying to win an argument and prove that his point was the right point. It was way too aggressive. He took something that should have been a friendly debate about each of their assumptions and tried to turn his assumptions into fact. It reminds me of the lawyers I work with that can't help themselves but approach even casual discussions as something to win. I hope he didn't mean to belittle [Kevin]."

    This happens in their Magic discussion all the time, too.


  • TMD Supporter

    @thecravenone said in [Podcast] SMIP # 74: The 2017 Year in Review & "Moxies" Award Show:

    @hierarchnoble said in [Podcast] SMIP # 74: The 2017 Year in Review & "Moxies" Award Show:

    "What should have been a discussion of what each person took away from the movie was instead [Steve] trying to win an argument and prove that his point was the right point. It was way too aggressive. He took something that should have been a friendly debate about each of their assumptions and tried to turn his assumptions into fact. It reminds me of the lawyers I work with that can't help themselves but approach even casual discussions as something to win. I hope he didn't mean to belittle [Kevin]."

    This happens in their Magic discussion all the time, too.

    It might be because she has less context for the Magic stuff versus the Star Wars stuff. It might be for one of the reasons that @Smmenen listed. Either way I wanted to pass that information along and it has not detracted from my own enjoyment of this episode (beyond when I can listen to it, obviously) and I enjoy it.


  • TMD Supporter

    Please recommend (ideally on twitter) cards you want us to cover in our Rivals of Ixalan set review. If you don’t speak up, we can’t promise we will cover a card you are interested in.


  • TMD Supporter

    I finally finished the podcast and wanted to comment that I really enjoyed the Star Wars commentary. I would encourage you both to include this sort of discussion in the future whenever you feel compelled. I could have listened to another hour of it, and those that don’t need it, can easily avoid. I’m glad you didn’t trim it, though I do think you could have structured it better. You both alluded to some things you wanted to discuss, but some of them never got talked about,

    I will say that at the end of the day, I think the polarization of this film largely comes down to how they handled Luke (with a smaller subdivision hating the Rose/Finn subplot). You both mentioned wanting and desiring a badass Master Jedi Luke beatdown, but instead we got 30min of Luke telling Rey to “go away.” Two of my friends absolutely loved seeing the broken and failed Luke, while I on the other hand was devastated with seeing that (especially after having to see a broken and failed Han Solo in TFA).

    This probably goes back to a childhood of wishing everyday that Lucas would reunite the original cast, clinging to every rumor of episodes 7-9 through the 80s and 90s. Wishing to see those heroes in action just one last time. This desire was even further reinforced with everything from writing term papers on Star Wars to backpacking through Tunisia to follow in Luke’s footsteps (side note: I highly, highly recommend this to the intrepid when Tunisia is safe again. You will understand a ton more about George Lucas’s inspiration). So needless to say, I sometimes wish they hadn’t even brought Han, Luke, and Leia back, just to see them like this. What was the point?

    I would imagine that you guys largely agree in some regard, as the only argument for the inclusion of the original cast is “to burn the past,” and yet, even here, you guys spent the entire portion of the podcast speaking about Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Kylo and Rey (which let’s be honest, is Luke 2.0 and Anakin 2.0- which is fine, I love them) and essentially zero mention of Poe, Finn, Rose. This is pretty representative of this trilogy’s lack of cohesion.

    Which is where my biggest issue lies. This film only needed a handful more Luke scenes to make his contribution purposeful. A few more Yoda-like training sessions, or a badass confrontation at the end (I loved the astral projection at the time, until I found out he died doing it). But I think we can see that the whole point of Luke in LJ was purposeless. This is evident by something that nobody seems to be discussing. Luke offered to teach her three lessons, but I remember leaving the theater wondering what the third one was? Later research shows that the third lesson scene ending up on the cutting room floor!

    THE LAST LIVING JEDI MASTER ONLY HAS THREE LESSONS TO IMPART TO REY, AND ONE OF THEM IS CUT FROM THE MOVIE?????!!!!! How short-sighed is this? How lazy is it when writing the Luke scenes (perhaps the most anticipated and important scenes of the movie) that they couldn’t get three lessons out of him? These should have been the three biggest moments of the trilogy (much like the quotables from Yoda/Luke training), and an excellent chance to build on our knowledge of the force.

    Unlike you guys, I don’t think I’ll need to watch this movie too many more times. I didn’t get much out of it in subsequent viewings that I didn’t get out of the first, other than the gulf widending for my appreciation of any scene with Luke/Rey/Kylo versus every other scene. I still think it’s one of the most beautiful SW films and has some of the most powerful scenes, but I do expect to be skipping through most of the film.

    I probably over-venerate Han and Luke, but as you guys mentioned SW has become almost a religion. If we had had a handful of other films with Ford and Hamill, I’d be more open to the whole “flawed hero thing,” but being as I waited almost 35 yrs for their sunset ride, it seems rather depressing. This did nothing for the legacies of two of the most memorable heroes in sci-fi history. I would have preferred their further adventures in my imagination. TFA gave me a ton of things to ponder. Last Jedi has given me very few. Maybe you truly can never go back.

    Oops, it appears I’ve used my allotted word count for the month! :) Anyway, great discussion Kevin and Steve. I enjoyed it.

    (Disclaimer: I too have stayed spoiler free for both films, and was probably the only person in America that didn’t see the Han death scene coming in TFA, so I might be a little oversensitive to these deaths, and maybe why after seeing the disappointing twilight years of Han, needed a huge Luke moment. Even now, two years later my wife likes to remind me how much consoling she did to me during our drive home from The Force Awakens :) It was a tough night. I hope they at least give Han’s death purpose in the final film.



  • @thecravenone the difference being that Steve is usually right in the Magic arguments, but dead wrong about The Last Jedi ;)



  • About Star Wars, I'll elaborate further when I have more time: but @Smmenen the stakes are there. They're just saying through the whole film that this war benefits a class of people, not one side or the other. The whole "balance" thing read, for me, that Kylo and Rey might finally understand that this everlasting war just tears both sides apart to make rich people profit. It's different than the other trilogies but far more interesting and more about current times.



  • @smmenen I don't have Twitter so I hope it's OK to do this here: Nezahal, Primal Tide and Merfolk Mistbinder. I guess both were off the radar here on TMD.

    Continuing about Star Wars, I find it very odd that people complained that the movie subverts their expectations. Do people really want to see trilogies and trilogies of movies where things are predictable everytime? Is that really what Star Wars fandom is all about? I'm not a SW hardcore fan, so I wouldn't know, but I find it oddly funny. I understood when people complained that EP VII was too much alike EP IV (although the original trilogy has a LOT of repeated plots between the three movies). But complaining that a movie did something different is so... weird to me.

    [SPOILER ALERT]
    Like, do people REALLY have a problem with Rey's parentage? That was such an awesome moment to me. Force Awakens set things up in a way where you were expected to think that she would be someone's lost daughter and kind of a "chosen one". It's so good that The Last Jedi broke this soap opera expectation and understood that the whole universe story can't be about 1 family feud.
    I totally agree with Steve that the movie was coined in a way that we had absolutely no idea what would happen after Kylo and Rey killed Snoke and that's awesome. It even kinda bothered me that after that the movie shifted back to the usual Good vs Evil trope. They give hints that maybe in EP IX this manichaeism will be dismantled and I hope it does.
    Also, it makes me roll my eyes when people complain about Luke. It seems fans wanted him to be a fully vanilla badass. When the movie presents a character that's a bit complex (come on, this is Star Wars, things aren't even that complex ever) people complain, even though he's the ultimate badass in the movie. The crowd in my theater was shouting and standing up to clap when he pulled his trick against Kylo. So yeah, I don't get any of the criticism, other than the movie being kinda badly written when you compare it to recent fantasy stuff like GoT - but that also makes me giggle because SW was always this naive, so I kinda thought people liked it exactly for that, or at least in spite of it.


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