February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement


  • TMD Supporter

    @hierarchnoble said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    There's been enough unrest in the past month that I think Wizards is going to make B&R changes because the community is clamoring for it. With less than four weeks to go, it's probably a good time to step away from brewing and just play what's performing well until the hammer falls. Hopefully the decks I've been keeping my eye on to try will still be relevant on April 16th.

    I don't think the clamoring is nearly as loud as it was last year, but there does seem to be a sad inevitability to it. I also think Vintage is approaching (still a ways to go, however) critical mass and is destined to become a bunch of highlander-eque decks. I would imagine this is a long-term consequence of restriction versus banning.

    Vintage "customers" now have a lot more products to choose from (Old School, EDH, Cube, etc) for their time, so the desire to "fight for stagnation," is probably not as strong as it once was. The schism between casuals and spikes will widen.

    I do feel sad however that the Workshop decks seems like it will eventually solidify as a 2cc aggro deck instead of the diverse and dynamic deck it once was (stax, martello, dark depths, terra nova). Those decks seem so interesting and complex in hindsight. I can see a ravager/ballista deck still being fine after losing three shops. I don't see a Stax or Martello deck surviving that hit. But who knows??

    Nobody does, which is why we keep playing!!

    /old man rant 🙂


  • TMD Supporter

    @joshuabrooks said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    interesting

    I think my tier 3 (or is that 4) 2 Card Monte deck can survive, albeit with much changes to it. I already want to cut the workshops down from 4 to 3. I have a few ideas I'm tinkering with to make it be able to win beyond the combos.



  • So if we banned everyone's pet card to hate on, what will vintage look like next month?



  • @gremlin-lord said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    So if we banned everyone's pet card to hate on, what will vintage look like next month?

    If we restricted everyone's pet card to hate we might be playing highlander.



  • @nedleeds said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    @gremlin-lord said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    So if we banned everyone's pet card to hate on, what will vintage look like next month?

    If we restricted everyone's pet card to hate we might be playing highlander.

    Highlander has a bigger following than vintage so that might be a good idea.



  • @joshuabrooks said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    @hierarchnoble said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    I can see a ravager/ballista deck still being fine after losing three shops. I don't see a Stax or Martello deck surviving that hit. But who knows??

    No chance even Ravager / Ballista survives a Shop restriction. The Eldrazi are so much better at that point it's not even close. The Shop creatures are bulk rare castaways without Workshop. Especially compared to the last 4-5 years of insane creature printings, most notably Eldrazi but secondarily the hate bears.



  • @gremlin-lord said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    @nedleeds said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    @gremlin-lord said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    So if we banned everyone's pet card to hate on, what will vintage look like next month?

    If we restricted everyone's pet card to hate we might be playing highlander.

    Highlander has a bigger following than vintage so that might be a good idea.

    Truth. I contend it would be fun and skill testing.



  • @moorebrother1 said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    I am very tired of Blue mirrors

    blue mirrors there are just awful.

    I will agree with one point that I didn't highlight, in that there was a lot more innovation back in the day. However, onto the points I highlighted above:

    I think you need to re-evaluate how you're playing your blue matchups. I absolutely love playing blue mirrors because I know it gives me the most opportunities to outplay them - this cannot be said really for shops or dredge, because they just put their dicks on the table then roll around throwing their own shit like an Ape.



  • @13nova It is always good to get a different perspective on this but I am really over the blue mirror. I'm not sure what you enjoy about it but the counter war back and forth until some gets luck and breaks through with a broken spell feels a lot like luck to me.

    I play Oath the way you describe the Shop and Dredge players, it's what I like about the deck. I just built storm and I'm going to try that out for a bit.



  • @moorebrother1 said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    @13nova It is always good to get a different perspective on this but I am really over the blue mirror. I'm not sure what you enjoy about it but the counter war back and forth until some gets luck and breaks through with a broken spell feels a lot like luck to me.

    I play Oath the way you describe the Shop and Dredge players, it's what I like about the deck. I just built storm and I'm going to try that out for a bit.

    You're disguising playskill as Luck. There's a reason some of the best blue pilots constantly do well in big tournaments. I was the highest placing 'traditional' blue deck at Eternal Weekend. I sideboarded out my Force of Wills in almost all of my matches. Opponents improper deck choices, improper sideboarding, and improper decisions with their decision trees allowed me to win several matches.



  • @13nova I’m not attempting to diminish anyone’s play ability. From my perspective, the blue mirror has not been decided so much by knowing when to play a spell or how to resolve the stack but whoever resolves Ancestral, Dack or Jace first wins.

    But that’s just me.


  • TMD Supporter

    @moorebrother1 In my years playing vintage, legacy, or any kind of blue type mirrior, I have never felt results were because of such reasons. Sure, turn one Jace the Mind Sculptor is amazingly powerful, if not game winning in a lot of instances. Besides variance, I always felt it was resource management that matter most. When to counter, when to attack, when to wait, when to not hold up a counter, when to cast a brainstorm/ancestral, etc. These are not always easy decisions and when you make the wrong one, it may not be easily noticeable but you could lose the advantage.

    I'm not advocating blue, blue, blue, blue all day everyday. I don't think Oath or Dredge is as easy as @13NoVa is saying (not saying it takes a Wizard either - unless you're Brian f'n Kelly), but I do agree with him on the play of blue decks.



  • @mdkubiak I am not saying that it is not skill intensive. I played you in our Vintage Trial when I was on Nahiri and you were on Mentor, and we had some good back and forth.

    In my opinion, there has been a shift since Champs in how blue mirrors get played. There appears to be a stategy of just jam in 10 to 12 counters and counter whatever my opponent plays, if I can, and I will win.

    I know that is not a recipe for winning, but that is what it has felt like to me. And, this would also explain why so many blue players were un-prepared for Shops, and Dredge.

    This is an important discussion for B&R because how "blue" decks play against each other really defines about 50% - 70% of the field.


  • TMD Supporter

    @moorebrother1 said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

    me

    It kind of came off like you were, so my apologies on misunderstanding.

    I can't speak much about since the trials, as I really haven't had a chance or honestly, the drive to spend traveling all day to play vintage in months (it costs me 60+ dollars to play because of gas, food, and entry... and my whole Sunday). Only thinking about changing decks for vintage has gotten me interested in playing again. My 2 Card Monte deck is just sitting in a corner collecting dust. I thought it was the deck for me, but I'm getting the feeling it's not (I will always love the card Painter though). I want something more controlling, but that's another discussion and doesn't belong here.

    Sure, these discussions are important, definitely not arguing that.


 

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