Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • @AmbivalentDuck I can definitely see it working without Lackey. Not sure how I feel about no Matron though, as the tutoring has been pretty relevant. If we do get rid of the lackey, I can see us making a case for something like Sundering titan to give more of a stax feel.



  • 4 Lackey could be Duress/Thoughtseize/Mental Misstep?

    It feels the need for some form of protection.



  • I'm not sure. It seems like the strongest line of attack against you is actually just huge critters and Walking Ballista/Ravager effects. Some combination of protection from removal and Krenko is likely the way to go.



  • So, God Pharaoh's Gift is now a thing. All of your dead stuff comes back as hasty 4/4s, which is a pretty big deal, and you get the ETB triggers. I'm pretty sure that's better than Mindslaver.


  • Administrators

    @AmbivalentDuck serious question, what do you think about Gate to the Afterlife?



  • @Brass-Man Seems like a rough grind to get six critters into your graveyard. If you're playing Gobs, it's for the Dack, Welder, Chains, and Earwig Squad package. Tinker for Gift lets any dead Welders and Matrons come back at a size Shops can't ignore. I might be thinking about that entirely wrong and maybe it's better just to board into something like Paradoxical Outcome since most Shops players will board out their Thorns after seeing a bunch of goblins game 1.



  • Anyone have any plans to revisit this archtype? It seems the meta has changed significantly and we may or may not be better positioned? Mentor got restricted so we no longer have to worry about playing terrible cards to try to get around it (sharpshooter/sulfur elemental). However Oath is now extremely popular so we may be forced to play x4 Grafdigger's Cage and/or Leyline of Sanctity or splash white for containment priest. The new shops builds can give us trouble with Walking Ballista; however Null Rod shuts down Ravager/Ballista pretty hard and I feel like we have the ability to swarm the field and win vs Ravager Shops is straight creature combat.



  • Does anyone actually actively play this tribe? What does a current List look like? A friend of mine that seems intersted in Vintage, but isn't as committed, is already playing Legacy Goblins, and this might just be a fine budged entry for him



  • @aelien right now there seems to be 2 schools of thought. The first is a “value” goblin type that is r/b and runs ring leader as a card advantage engine along with a ton of creatures. Basically closer to the legacy versions only instead of vial, you have moxen/simian spirit guides. It can also run skull clamp for card draw. The second build is more of a grixis control deck that runs ancestral recall, time walk, tinker, and dack along with powerful targets like mindslaver/wurmcoil engine to abuse welder.

    They’re both fun but have flaws. The first build ends up relying on syngergy and playing individually bad cards hoping for them to mesh together in a format where stand-alone threats are ungodly efficient. The second build plays like either a slightly worse grixis control deck or slightly worse welder-shops deck. However both builds are REALLY fun and fun is what vintage should be about. I prefer the second build personally.



  • @naixin intersting. Is a an unpowered Null Rod build possible? Rod is the first thing I usually think about when talking about tribal Decks in Vintage. Are goblins just too expensive to miss out on artifact power?


  • TMD Supporter

    @aelien You could always take this deck and update it for Vintage. Sadly Vintage Goblins is a deck devoid of handouts, so if you want it to exist you'll have to design it yourself. Legacy variants are a good place to start.



  • Vintage Goblins would probably be something like New Squee Food Chain Gobs. You can pretty reliably get infi mana, but then what? You don't really want a deck full of Ringleaders. Matrons are acceptable if only because of the flexibility, but I don't recall a goblin infi mana outlet. You'd be into something like Siege Gang Commander?

    So, you run "grixis control gobs" with 4 Food Chain, New Squee, and Siege Gang. Make infi mana with Food Chain and Squee, then use Siege Gang as a way to convert infi mana and infi New Squee sacs (can be cast from grave) into infi damage?

    This might be a deck if only because it can approach a two card combo of unrestricted parts, one of which is insanely redundant (Recruiter = Matron = Ringleader = tutors = ...) and the other is an enchantment.

    On second thought, that could be really good. Combo vs shops. Earwig plan vs blue combo. Spellbomb and Welder game 1 vs Dredge. The real question is how you build around Food Chain to achieve the explosion.


  • TMD Supporter

    @ambivalentduck More talk of that strategy can be found here. However, Food Chain mana can't be used to activate Siege-Gang Commander. "Spend this mana only to cast creature spells", RTFC, etc.



  • @aelien A local kid runs a goofy vintage build against me. He has 4 cavern. 4 Null Rod, 4 Magus and 2 Bloodmoon... I think? Then Lacky, Recruiter and Matron into Seige-Gang, Warchief (He calls it war chef), and Krenko. Then some burn. Maybe 2 Bolts and a Tarfire? I wish I had a list for you.

    It's not bad, but it's not great either. I run Oath, so I have a great matchup against it. I'm not sold on the moons cuz they're slow. Null Rod seems great here. I wonder about Damping Sphere too. He barely ever plays more than one spell per turn, and nearly always plays one.

    The games he loses, it's just to fair and slow. The games he wins are often a turn 1 Lacky or Recruiter, followed by turn 2 Moon effect or Null Rod + A Siege Gang or Krenko. Cavern into Lacky is just really hard to beat sometimes. It makes Misstep look pretty dumb. When it's good, it's super good. I've seen it just bust Shops and Xerox before by getting way ahead in 2-3 turns. (Watching Krenko fight Shops it pretty awesome too.) I've also seen it do nothing at all a lot of the time.


 

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