Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • Does anyone actually actively play this tribe? What does a current List look like? A friend of mine that seems intersted in Vintage, but isn't as committed, is already playing Legacy Goblins, and this might just be a fine budged entry for him



  • @aelien right now there seems to be 2 schools of thought. The first is a “value” goblin type that is r/b and runs ring leader as a card advantage engine along with a ton of creatures. Basically closer to the legacy versions only instead of vial, you have moxen/simian spirit guides. It can also run skull clamp for card draw. The second build is more of a grixis control deck that runs ancestral recall, time walk, tinker, and dack along with powerful targets like mindslaver/wurmcoil engine to abuse welder.

    They’re both fun but have flaws. The first build ends up relying on syngergy and playing individually bad cards hoping for them to mesh together in a format where stand-alone threats are ungodly efficient. The second build plays like either a slightly worse grixis control deck or slightly worse welder-shops deck. However both builds are REALLY fun and fun is what vintage should be about. I prefer the second build personally.



  • @naixin intersting. Is a an unpowered Null Rod build possible? Rod is the first thing I usually think about when talking about tribal Decks in Vintage. Are goblins just too expensive to miss out on artifact power?



  • @aelien You could always take this deck and update it for Vintage. Sadly Vintage Goblins is a deck devoid of handouts, so if you want it to exist you'll have to design it yourself. Legacy variants are a good place to start.



  • Vintage Goblins would probably be something like New Squee Food Chain Gobs. You can pretty reliably get infi mana, but then what? You don't really want a deck full of Ringleaders. Matrons are acceptable if only because of the flexibility, but I don't recall a goblin infi mana outlet. You'd be into something like Siege Gang Commander?

    So, you run "grixis control gobs" with 4 Food Chain, New Squee, and Siege Gang. Make infi mana with Food Chain and Squee, then use Siege Gang as a way to convert infi mana and infi New Squee sacs (can be cast from grave) into infi damage?

    This might be a deck if only because it can approach a two card combo of unrestricted parts, one of which is insanely redundant (Recruiter = Matron = Ringleader = tutors = ...) and the other is an enchantment.

    On second thought, that could be really good. Combo vs shops. Earwig plan vs blue combo. Spellbomb and Welder game 1 vs Dredge. The real question is how you build around Food Chain to achieve the explosion.



  • @ambivalentduck More talk of that strategy can be found here. However, Food Chain mana can't be used to activate Siege-Gang Commander. "Spend this mana only to cast creature spells", RTFC, etc.



  • @aelien A local kid runs a goofy vintage build against me. He has 4 cavern. 4 Null Rod, 4 Magus and 2 Bloodmoon... I think? Then Lacky, Recruiter and Matron into Seige-Gang, Warchief (He calls it war chef), and Krenko. Then some burn. Maybe 2 Bolts and a Tarfire? I wish I had a list for you.

    It's not bad, but it's not great either. I run Oath, so I have a great matchup against it. I'm not sold on the moons cuz they're slow. Null Rod seems great here. I wonder about Damping Sphere too. He barely ever plays more than one spell per turn, and nearly always plays one.

    The games he loses, it's just to fair and slow. The games he wins are often a turn 1 Lacky or Recruiter, followed by turn 2 Moon effect or Null Rod + A Siege Gang or Krenko. Cavern into Lacky is just really hard to beat sometimes. It makes Misstep look pretty dumb. When it's good, it's super good. I've seen it just bust Shops and Xerox before by getting way ahead in 2-3 turns. (Watching Krenko fight Shops it pretty awesome too.) I've also seen it do nothing at all a lot of the time.



  • Goblin Chainwhirler looks kind of spicy. Hits the jeskai decks pretty hard as it kills everything except for mentor. Can also hit hangerback walker tokens, phyrexian revokers, etc.

    Time to revisit the good ole little green boys?

    For the record, here is a rough draft of where i'm starting my testing at:

    // Vintage Goblins Aggro

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 4 Artifact
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    2 Null Rod

    // 37 Creature
    3 Earwig Squad
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Goblin Chainwhirler
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    3 Warren Instigator
    3 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Goblin Welder
    3 Gempalm Incinerator

    // 19 Land
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Mountain
    2 Badlands
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

    // 15 Sideboard
    // 4 Artifact
    SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage

    // 5 Creature
    SB: 1 Goblin Welder
    SB: 2 Goblin Chainwhirler
    SB: 2 Tuktuk Scrapper

    // 4 Enchantment
    SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

    // 2 Instant
    SB: 2 Pyrokinesis

    Biggest thoughts:

    1. Is Simian Spirit Guide better or Mox/Crypt/Chrome Mox better. They all have their pros and cons. SSG gets around thorns and provides red, but is a one-shot use. Off-color moxen stays around, but they're off color. Chrome Mox is perma source of red, but costs an extra card. Decisions decisions....atm i'm leaning towards SSG since our deck is so red-intensive.

    2. I have no idea if my creature count/toolbox is correct, it's just a bunch of stuff I wanted to play with the idea that Matron can tutor for them. Oh well.



  • No promises of optimality, but this has failed to fail in brief testing. The Containment Priests are almost surely an error as is Chandra. Fanatic and Trashmaster are the real deal. Maybe Yixlids? Dunno. I haven't played in a while, but Trashmaster was worth firing up Cockatrice for.

    2 Damping Sphere
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Grafdigger's Cage

    2 Tin Street Hooligan
    2 Cheering Fanatic
    4 Earwig Squad
    4 Goblin Rabblemaster
    4 Goblin Matron
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Goblin Trashmaster

    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Abrade

    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Mountain
    3 Mana Confluence
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt

    2 Dack Fayden
    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Time Walk

    Sideboard
    1 Trinisphere
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Leyline of the Void
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pyroblast
    4 Mental Misstep
    1 Ancient Grudge



  • Cockatrice is a great place to test. There's not another electronic platform that 90% of the people who play vintage use. Nope. Just cockatrice.



  • @13nova said in Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage:

    Cockatrice is a great place to test. There's not another electronic platform that 90% of the people who play vintage use. Nope. Just cockatrice.

    I'm not a big fan of renting digital cards. It's kind of dubious to invest in an online platform when the content owner you're renting from is actively investing in a new platform and won't move your cards over onto it. Just sayin'...



  • @ambivalentduck said in Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage:

    @13nova said in Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage:

    Cockatrice is a great place to test. There's not another electronic platform that 90% of the people who play vintage use. Nope. Just cockatrice.

    I'm not a big fan of renting digital cards. It's kind of dubious to invest in an online platform when the content owner you're renting from is actively investing in a new platform and won't move your cards over onto it. Just sayin'...

    Oh. I get it. I don't play on MTGO anymore either for similar reasons. Renting cardboard. But I don't feel cockatrice is a great testing platform either.



  • I barely have time to cube and go to prereleases these days, but I think Goblins are probably competitive again. A few things took Goblins out of the picture:

    • Critters started showing up in brown lists and blocking goblins
    • 4x Mentor meant that a single Jester's Cap effect wasn't lethal
    • Eldrazi got printed and are actually much harder to kill than artifact critters

    What changed?

    • Abrade Goblin is maindeckable as a 4x and kills all the colorless and brown problems that can ruin your day
    • Mentor got restricted, greatly increasing the value of cap effects vs Xerox engines
    • Legion Warboss is everything Rabblemaster needed to be: go-wide, pumps Lackey, makes hasty tokens to hit planeswalkers. Unlike Rabblemaster, it doesn't force your other gobs to make bad attacks.
    • Trashmaster lets you trade up vs brown
    • Warboss + Trashmaster let you go back to being an aggro-combo deck vs Xerox and aggro-control vs brown. Earwig Squad "combo" isn't a sufficient angle of attack vs Xerox anymore and you had too slow a clock without it.
    • Assassin's Trophy lets you switch from Grixis to Jund and adds redundant disruption against everything but fast combo (where Earwig Squad seemingly still does all the work you need). It's cute that it gives a maindeck answer to Oath, too.

    Anyways, I think these recent printings probably bring Gobs back. I'm happy to help people brew if they're interested.



  • @ambivalentduck

    I've been playing this. It can use some tuning but it seems fun.

    // Vintage Goblins Aggro

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 5 Artifact
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    3 Null Rod

    // 32 Creature
    3 Earwig Squad
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    3 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Stingscourger
    3 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Goblin Chainwhirler
    4 Warren Instigator
    3 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Gempalm Incinerator

    // 3 Instant
    3 Mental Misstep

    // 20 Land
    4 Cavern of Souls
    5 Mountain
    2 Badlands
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

    // 15 Sideboard
    // 6 Artifact
    SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
    SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

    // 5 Creature
    SB: 1 Goblin Chainwhirler
    SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
    SB: 2 Goblin Cratermaker
    SB: 1 Goblin Trashmaster

    // 4 Enchantment
    SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

    It's a Lackey/Instigator based build that tries to cheat stuff into play. Not sure about the right configurations but having 8 enabler seem good. The new Legion Warboss and Rabblemaster also seem like theyd be good pay-off spells. Maybe even Piledriver.


 

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