Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Goblins should have one of the best Mentor and combo matchups at the moment since it can slam an uncounterable turn 2 Earwig Squad or Sulfur Elemental. It's not clear to me how bad the shops matchup become because of that, but you can run 4x Rakdos Charm main. Maybe a few random Dack Faydens?

    Those are cards but I think you need more than either. A single cap effect isn't going to stop the majority of builds and it does nothing to stop an early Mentor.



  • Mentor is one of the reasons I want Basilisk Collar, combined with Sharpshooter it acts like a machine gun for any creature based matchup.



  • @msg67183 Seems like a stretch to me.


  • TMD Supporter

    @msg67183 We have been testing sharpshooter in hatebear builds and it is surprisingly good against mentor in general. It takes care of all the tokens and can make mentor a lot easier to kill, less likely to attack into your other creatures. It also just makes combat awesome in general.



  • I think Goblins can be competitive.
    Collar is probably not necessary to kill mentor if you run a Skirk Prospector.
    I don't understand the lack of Aether Vial, Skullclamp, and Goblin Darkdwellers.



  • Taking a crack at Goblins, the goal is to consistently win game 1 vs Mentor and Dredge. Oath is an awful matchup if you want get off an Earwig trigger before they get an activation, so make sure to include something to deal with that.

    21
    4 Lackey
    4 Matron
    4 Earwig
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Goblin Piledriver
    1 Goblin Welder
    1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
    1 Legion Loyalist
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warder
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Wurmcoil Engine

    14
    4 Rakdos Charm
    2 Dack Fayden
    Trinisphere
    Demonic Tutor
    Vampiric Tutor
    Demonic Consultation
    Ancestral Recall
    Tinker (Trinisphere and Wurmcoil Engine are both brutal in their matchups)
    Treasure Cruise
    Time Walk

    25
    5 Mox
    Black Lotus
    Sol Ring
    Mana Crypt
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Badlands
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Strip Mine

    SB:
    Not sure


  • TMD Supporter

    don't forget to use kiki jiki to copy your opponent's duplicant and win a black lotus doing so.



  • @Juggernaut-GO Did that actually happen?


  • TMD Supporter

    @Aaron-Patten scg power9 event years ago in richmond. kid should have been dq'd but i lost to him in the finals regardless.



  • @Juggernaut-GO That is the worst thing. Very sorry to hear that.


  • TMD Supporter

    @Juggernaut-GO Mike Zaun? I heard he just had Lackey in his opening hand like, every time and that's how he won.



  • @socialite

    You have 4 maindeck Earwig Squads already

    You can play 8 Pyrostatic Pillars in the sideboard. Plus 4 Leyline of Sanctities, 4 Mental Missteps, and 4 Mindbreak Traps if you wanted to. There is no reason why it should be a 'crap shoot'



  • @shawnthehero said:

    @socialite

    You have 4 maindeck Earwig Squads already

    You can play 8 Pyrostatic Pillars in the sideboard. Plus 4 Leyline of Sanctities, 4 Mental Missteps, and 4 Mindbreak Traps if you wanted to. There is no reason why it should be a 'crap shoot'

    To me Earwig seems like the only viable option. Leyline is also a possibility, the rest dilutes your clock and DPS seems well prepared for them regardless. Trying to fix a match up that isn't good at the expense of more reasonable ones is, in my experience, a huge pitfall.



  • @Aaron-Patten said:

    I think Goblins can be competitive.
    Collar is probably not necessary to kill mentor if you run a Skirk Prospector.
    I don't understand the lack of Aether Vial, Skullclamp, and Goblin Darkdwellers.

    I didn't even notice that interaction with Skirk Prospector, thank you!
    No Vial or Skullclamp because they are Nonbos with Null Rod.
    No Dark Dwellers because I play 1 sorcery in my entire list.



  • Maybe you guys are right, maybe I shouldn't attempt to try out dedicated Storm hate and just bring in my four Leyline of the Void since they help against Dark Petition and Yawg Will. I could use the four slots for more constructive things like a few more Dredge hate, or Shops hate, or even more Oath hate, although the main deck is fairly stacked against it with 4 Earwig, Weirding, Stingscourger, and the like. Cages wouldn't hurt.



  • MSG, is there a reason you aren't going blue for Ancestral, Time Walk, Dack, and Tinker? Combo shouldn't be a problem matchup. Your roughest should be Forgemaster shops and blue can really help there.



  • First of all, I never have played goblins myself, but I have played quite a bit mono red and other tribal decks in vintage.

    Manabase: 4 fetchs and 2 bloods are only 6 black mana sources. That's under 60% of having one in your starting hand, and after 3 or 4 draws you will still be without black mana if needed.

    Goblins choices: I only "dislike" war marshal, I find him under level.

    Simians: Having 2 mana in starting hand is way better than having 1, but it's a risky play unless the played card makes a huge difference.

    Sideboard: I used pyrokinesis some years ago, but I think that mentor has changed it into a bad card. Playing black you can go from engineered plague to antitokens, or play sulfur elementals. Mentor seems highly favoured so I think this is a must.
    I think that pithing is nothing special in this list. It's unlikely that you are boarding this in against mud or non-tezz blue deck. Rakdos charm (props to @AmbivalentDuck) could help against dredge and mud, as you are playing really low MUD hate
    As said, probably a pillar effect is better than thorn most of the time.
    Playing red opens space for blood moon. While you lose cavern and black, your opponent will suffer more than you. Just an option to test.
    oath is not covered by anything outside earwig.

    Overall I think the idea is to play a soft lock with null rod and wastes while hitting as hard as possible. Earwig and silver bullets help with the plan. Seems a good idea against slow decks, but I don't know how slow is the format right now.



  • But Pyrostatic Pillar makes it s good matchup. Pillar is the absolute best card against Storm since they can't just bounce it and win; they lose the moment you resolve Pillar @socialite



  • @xouman said:

    First of all, I never have played goblins myself, but I have played quite a bit mono red and other tribal decks in vintage.

    Manabase: 4 fetchs and 2 bloods are only 6 black mana sources. That's under 60% of having one in your starting hand, and after 3 or 4 draws you will still be without black mana if needed.

    Goblins choices: I only "dislike" war marshal, I find him under level.

    Simians: Having 2 mana in starting hand is way better than having 1, but it's a risky play unless the played card makes a huge difference.

    Sideboard: I used pyrokinesis some years ago, but I think that mentor has changed it into a bad card. Playing black you can go from engineered plague to antitokens, or play sulfur elementals. Mentor seems highly favoured so I think this is a must.
    I think that pithing is nothing special in this list. It's unlikely that you are boarding this in against mud or non-tezz blue deck. Rakdos charm (props to @AmbivalentDuck) could help against dredge and mud, as you are playing really low MUD hate
    As said, probably a pillar effect is better than thorn most of the time.
    Playing red opens space for blood moon. While you lose cavern and black, your opponent will suffer more than you. Just an option to test.
    oath is not covered by anything outside earwig.

    Overall I think the idea is to play a soft lock with null rod and wastes while hitting as hard as possible. Earwig and silver bullets help with the plan. Seems a good idea against slow decks, but I don't know how slow is the format right now.

    I don't need much Black since all I run that I would need to cast is Warren Weirding, since Cavern can supply the black for Earwig, Wort and Grenzo.

    I might cut the War Marshals they are solid against cards like Wire but they are the worst cards in the deck by far. I could then squeeze in a Skirk Prospector and then something else.

    I feel Sulfur Elemental is just too narrow to be honest, although it is sweet combined with Sharpshooter since Elemental makes mentor a 3/1. I just like the versatility of Pyrokinesis.

    The original reason I didn't run Cage was because I don't like nonbos in my deck and it is a nonbo with Grenzo.



  • Elemental plus sharpshooter gives you a trigger for every non-critter spell they cast with a mentor out.


 

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