Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • @Juggernaut-GO That is the worst thing. Very sorry to hear that.


  • TMD Supporter

    @Juggernaut-GO Mike Zaun? I heard he just had Lackey in his opening hand like, every time and that's how he won.



  • @socialite

    You have 4 maindeck Earwig Squads already

    You can play 8 Pyrostatic Pillars in the sideboard. Plus 4 Leyline of Sanctities, 4 Mental Missteps, and 4 Mindbreak Traps if you wanted to. There is no reason why it should be a 'crap shoot'



  • @shawnthehero said:

    @socialite

    You have 4 maindeck Earwig Squads already

    You can play 8 Pyrostatic Pillars in the sideboard. Plus 4 Leyline of Sanctities, 4 Mental Missteps, and 4 Mindbreak Traps if you wanted to. There is no reason why it should be a 'crap shoot'

    To me Earwig seems like the only viable option. Leyline is also a possibility, the rest dilutes your clock and DPS seems well prepared for them regardless. Trying to fix a match up that isn't good at the expense of more reasonable ones is, in my experience, a huge pitfall.



  • @Aaron-Patten said:

    I think Goblins can be competitive.
    Collar is probably not necessary to kill mentor if you run a Skirk Prospector.
    I don't understand the lack of Aether Vial, Skullclamp, and Goblin Darkdwellers.

    I didn't even notice that interaction with Skirk Prospector, thank you!
    No Vial or Skullclamp because they are Nonbos with Null Rod.
    No Dark Dwellers because I play 1 sorcery in my entire list.



  • Maybe you guys are right, maybe I shouldn't attempt to try out dedicated Storm hate and just bring in my four Leyline of the Void since they help against Dark Petition and Yawg Will. I could use the four slots for more constructive things like a few more Dredge hate, or Shops hate, or even more Oath hate, although the main deck is fairly stacked against it with 4 Earwig, Weirding, Stingscourger, and the like. Cages wouldn't hurt.



  • MSG, is there a reason you aren't going blue for Ancestral, Time Walk, Dack, and Tinker? Combo shouldn't be a problem matchup. Your roughest should be Forgemaster shops and blue can really help there.



  • First of all, I never have played goblins myself, but I have played quite a bit mono red and other tribal decks in vintage.

    Manabase: 4 fetchs and 2 bloods are only 6 black mana sources. That's under 60% of having one in your starting hand, and after 3 or 4 draws you will still be without black mana if needed.

    Goblins choices: I only "dislike" war marshal, I find him under level.

    Simians: Having 2 mana in starting hand is way better than having 1, but it's a risky play unless the played card makes a huge difference.

    Sideboard: I used pyrokinesis some years ago, but I think that mentor has changed it into a bad card. Playing black you can go from engineered plague to antitokens, or play sulfur elementals. Mentor seems highly favoured so I think this is a must.
    I think that pithing is nothing special in this list. It's unlikely that you are boarding this in against mud or non-tezz blue deck. Rakdos charm (props to @AmbivalentDuck) could help against dredge and mud, as you are playing really low MUD hate
    As said, probably a pillar effect is better than thorn most of the time.
    Playing red opens space for blood moon. While you lose cavern and black, your opponent will suffer more than you. Just an option to test.
    oath is not covered by anything outside earwig.

    Overall I think the idea is to play a soft lock with null rod and wastes while hitting as hard as possible. Earwig and silver bullets help with the plan. Seems a good idea against slow decks, but I don't know how slow is the format right now.



  • But Pyrostatic Pillar makes it s good matchup. Pillar is the absolute best card against Storm since they can't just bounce it and win; they lose the moment you resolve Pillar @socialite



  • @xouman said:

    First of all, I never have played goblins myself, but I have played quite a bit mono red and other tribal decks in vintage.

    Manabase: 4 fetchs and 2 bloods are only 6 black mana sources. That's under 60% of having one in your starting hand, and after 3 or 4 draws you will still be without black mana if needed.

    Goblins choices: I only "dislike" war marshal, I find him under level.

    Simians: Having 2 mana in starting hand is way better than having 1, but it's a risky play unless the played card makes a huge difference.

    Sideboard: I used pyrokinesis some years ago, but I think that mentor has changed it into a bad card. Playing black you can go from engineered plague to antitokens, or play sulfur elementals. Mentor seems highly favoured so I think this is a must.
    I think that pithing is nothing special in this list. It's unlikely that you are boarding this in against mud or non-tezz blue deck. Rakdos charm (props to @AmbivalentDuck) could help against dredge and mud, as you are playing really low MUD hate
    As said, probably a pillar effect is better than thorn most of the time.
    Playing red opens space for blood moon. While you lose cavern and black, your opponent will suffer more than you. Just an option to test.
    oath is not covered by anything outside earwig.

    Overall I think the idea is to play a soft lock with null rod and wastes while hitting as hard as possible. Earwig and silver bullets help with the plan. Seems a good idea against slow decks, but I don't know how slow is the format right now.

    I don't need much Black since all I run that I would need to cast is Warren Weirding, since Cavern can supply the black for Earwig, Wort and Grenzo.

    I might cut the War Marshals they are solid against cards like Wire but they are the worst cards in the deck by far. I could then squeeze in a Skirk Prospector and then something else.

    I feel Sulfur Elemental is just too narrow to be honest, although it is sweet combined with Sharpshooter since Elemental makes mentor a 3/1. I just like the versatility of Pyrokinesis.

    The original reason I didn't run Cage was because I don't like nonbos in my deck and it is a nonbo with Grenzo.



  • Elemental plus sharpshooter gives you a trigger for every non-critter spell they cast with a mentor out.



  • @msg67183 I'm very confused by a lot of this. When Max and I were testing Goblins against Tez-Vault, we ran Warren Weirding as an out to Tinker. When Jace was printed, we actually switched to him for the bounce. You're running Ringleaders already: 4 cmc card advantage is par for the course. On top of that we were running 5 Waste effects and Jace-sealing could keep someone off mana long enough to win. Now we have something even better: Dack. For only 3 mana, he steals Tinker bots, steals Shops robots, and filters cards. He also fills your grave in the only tribe that actually cares about Welder's critter type.

    Dack is good enough that Gush decks run him. Why aren't you? You need a way to get Shop's butts out of the way. Dack is perfect because you can steal those butts. Between Dack and Rakos charm, critter-heavy MUD can be a decent matchup preboard.

    With 4 Rakdos Charm main, you also have good odds of winning game 1 vs Dredge. They'll never see it coming and they have little ability to play around it.

    With Ancestral, Treasure Cruise, and 3 black tutors, you have card drawing and selection that lets you pull ahead of Thalia decks. You won't race Pyromancer, but Tinker can do that for you.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    You're running Ringleaders already: 4 cmc card advantage is par for the course.
    Dack is good enough that Gush decks run him. Why aren't you?

    You answered you own question to some extent. As you dilute the deck down below 30 Goblins all the other cards become less reliable and powerful. It's a balance. It's hard to argue against Walk and Recall though, assuming you have a mana base with other duals.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 I'm very confused by a lot of this. When Max and I were testing Goblins against Tez-Vault, we ran Warren Weirding as an out to Tinker. When Jace was printed, we actually switched to him for the bounce. You're running Ringleaders already: 4 cmc card advantage is par for the course. On top of that we were running 5 Waste effects and Jace-sealing could keep someone off mana long enough to win. Now we have something even better: Dack. For only 3 mana, he steals Tinker bots, steals Shops robots, and filters cards. He also fills your grave in the only tribe that actually cares about Welder's critter type.

    Dack is good enough that Gush decks run him. Why aren't you? You need a way to get Shop's butts out of the way. Dack is perfect because you can steal those butts. Between Dack and Rakos charm, critter-heavy MUD can be a decent matchup preboard.

    With 4 Rakdos Charm main, you also have good odds of winning game 1 vs Dredge. They'll never see it coming and they have little ability to play around it.

    With Ancestral, Treasure Cruise, and 3 black tutors, you have card drawing and selection that lets you pull ahead of Thalia decks. You won't race Pyromancer, but Tinker can do that for you.

    Simply put, I don't want to play Blue in the deck. Easy enough. Rakdos Charm is great but I don't want to main deck so many cards that don't trigger off my Ringleaders. Shops is a fine matchup I don't need much more than I already have, you just need to out attrition them and thats easy to do when you don't need to cast your spells (Lackey) or your Spells aren't affected by Spheres (Warchief) or you have consistent ways to generate card advantage.



  • It's not clear to me that Ringleader is a reasonable inclusion. It has to come down off Lackey to be "reasonably" costed. You can't safely assume that Lackey will actually connect except against dedicated combo. You're only running two Incinerator and a Weirding to get your 1/1 through even though you might reasonably encounter Deathrites, Delvers, Mentors, and Pyromancers to block it. You're playing a bunch of highly overcosted 2/2s in a meta where you can't rely on Aether Vial or Lackey to cast them for you.

    If you're going to rely so heavily on Lackey, at least run Sudden Shocks, Dead//Gone, or Tarfires.



  • We can agree to disagree on this point all day. I've casted Ringleaders easily in this deck.



  • I think I like Maindeck Grafdigger's Cage in Goblins if you're not planning to break Goblin Dark-dwellers.



  • Ringleader and Cavern of Souls (paired or not) are really the only things this deck has going for itself in modern Vintage. From my perspective removing either would be a huge Misstep. You're literally just a bad aggro deck in that senario and there's already a fair amount of evidence that - that is already the case.



  • Has anyone ever tried to run main deck Goblin Vandal instead of Null Rod so as to abuse Aether Vial and Skullclamp?



  • @Aaron-Patten I've run it with Null, I think it was 2 of each? But I found that it cut into my early turn mana a lot, having to tap for the red to kill the artifact. It seemed really tempo slow, but my build was also crappy. For what it's worth.

    PS run a chalice. Setting it at 0 on the play likely wins the game. Setting it at 1 on turn 1 or 2 likely wins the game.


 

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