Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • @shawnthehero said:

    @msg67183

    Or you could sacrifice the blocked Goblin with Skirk Prospecter. Mountainwalk could be relevant as well

    Mountainwalk!!!! Lol Goblin King. Not sure about that honestly. I'd rather just remove the Sphinx entirely.



  • @msg67183 said:

    For example, how does your deck beat an in play Sphinx of the Steel Wind @AmbivalentDuck
    I just like having outs to every possible contingency if I can.

    Welder recurring Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine are both sufficient. Mindslaver is an answer to most of problems that Vintage has to offer, but it's very slow.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 said:

    For example, how does your deck beat an in play Sphinx of the Steel Wind @AmbivalentDuck
    I just like having outs to every possible contingency if I can.

    Welder recurring Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine are both sufficient. Mindslaver is an answer to most of problems that Vintage has to offer, but it's very slow.

    How is Wurmcoil sufficient against Sphinx, he has First Strike.



  • Every time a Wurmcoil dies, you get two Wurms. If you Weld one of those Wurms (deathtouch) for Wurmcoil, now you have a Wurmcoil and a lifelink Wurm. Wash/rinse/repeat.

    Sphinx is out of fashion, though. It was good against UR Delver, but it's actually pretty bad against Mentor Gush since they have StP and the ability to just grow it to 7/7.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Every time a Wurmcoil dies, you get two Wurms. If you Weld one of those Wurms (deathtouch) for Wurmcoil, now you have a Wurmcoil and a lifelink Wurm. Wash/rinse/repeat.

    Sphinx is out of fashion, though. It was good against UR Delver, but it's actually pretty bad against Mentor Gush since they have StP and the ability to just grow it to 7/7.

    So your plan is to simply make a bunch of 3/3 lifelink wurms to combat a 6/6 flying lifelinker with first strike and vigilance. It might work but I don't see it, seems slow to be honest.
    It may be out of favor but I just like being prepared for it just in case. Blightsteel is alot easier to answer of course.



  • With that plan you need 3 Lifelinking Wurms just to break even.



  • Untrue. If they block wurmcoil, they're not blocking the rest of the team. You don't need to kill them. You just have to cap them and not die.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Untrue. If they block wurmcoil, they're not blocking the rest of the team. You don't need to kill them. You just have to cap them and not die.

    They block Wurmcoil, gain 6 and you lose your Wurmcoil without gaining 6. Then they swing, you can't block lose 6 and they gain 6. I fail to see how this works out.



  • Every turn they gain 12 and deal 6. It actually takes a while to kill you with 6-damage hits. So you attack with Wurmcoil (and others), they block and take at least 0. Next cycle, it deals 3 and you gain 3. 6 and you gain 6. 9 and you gain 9, etc.

    So on turn N (where N>0) of your standoff,
    Them: Life=Life_0 + 12N - 3(N-1)^2
    You: Life=Life_0 - 6N + 3(N-1)^2

    Even though their life total shoots up, you're actually winning and the low point in your life is at Life_0 - 12. Beyond that, they're blocking the Wurmcoil and not any of your goblins so you're getting Lackey triggers and the like.

    It's worth reminding you that Sphinx is incredibly rare in the meta since it doesn't dodge Swords to Plowshares or Jace TMS. Mentor can even race Griselbrand. Big lifelinkers are no longer the Tinker target of choice.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Every turn they gain 12 and deal 6. It actually takes a while to kill you with 6-damage hits. So you attack with Wurmcoil (and others), they block and take at least 0. Next cycle, it deals 3 and you gain 3. 6 and you gain 6. 9 and you gain 9, etc.

    So on turn N (where N>0) of your standoff,
    Them: Life=Life_0 + 12N - 3(N-1)^2
    You: Life=Life_0 - 6N + 3(N-1)^2

    Even though their life total shoots up, you're actually winning and the low point in your life is at Life_0 - 12. Beyond that, they're blocking the Wurmcoil and not any of your goblins so you're getting Lackey triggers and the like.

    It's worth reminding you that Sphinx is incredibly rare in the meta since it doesn't dodge Swords to Plowshares or Jace TMS. Mentor can even race Griselbrand. Big lifelinkers are no longer the Tinker target of choice.

    So like I said, it's incredibly slow and gets thwarted by any removal they may have, especially something like Swords to Plowshares.



  • @msg67183 Maybe. They have to remove the welder, not the wurmcoil though. And again, your other critters are connecting. On top of that, weirding is one of the few spells you run, so it's much more likely to eat a flusterstorm. If you think it's so important to address that one cornercase, hurkyll's can be maindecked.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 Maybe. They have to remove the welder, not the wurmcoil though. And again, your other critters are connecting. On top of that, weirding is one of the few spells you run, so it's much more likely to eat a flusterstorm. If you think it's so important to address that one cornercase, hurkyll's can be maindecked.

    But Hurkyl's can't be Matroned for, making it worse. Weirding certainly is the worst card in my main deck, but its a necessary evil I feel.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 Maybe. They have to remove the welder, not the wurmcoil though. And again, your other critters are connecting. On top of that, weirding is one of the few spells you run, so it's much more likely to eat a flusterstorm. If you think it's so important to address that one cornercase, hurkyll's can be maindecked.

    All they have to do is Swords the Wurmcoil and you can no longer recur it, so it makes Welder fairly worthless.



  • @msg67183 What ever happened to good ole stingscourger as an answer to tinker?



  • @Stormanimagus said:

    @msg67183 What ever happened to good ole stingscourger as an answer to tinker?

    I run Stingscourger, but he can't hit Sphinx.



  • If sphinx appears, you lose. Even if you play warren weirding, they'll have the fow most of the time, they are not going to waste it in other things. If you are really afraid about it, play metamorph, since it's a creature and can trade or at least give you time to win.
    You also are playing earwig, and sphinx should be a good target to remove.
    To be honest, I don't expect lots of sphinx, if you do the best plan is to maindeck cage.



  • @xouman said:

    If sphinx appears, you lose. Even if you play warren weirding, they'll have the fow most of the time, they are not going to waste it in other things. If you are really afraid about it, play metamorph, since it's a creature and can trade or at least give you time to win.
    You also are playing earwig, and sphinx should be a good target to remove.
    To be honest, I don't expect lots of sphinx, if you do the best plan is to maindeck cage.

    I am simply saying screw it, cut the Weirding since it is the worst card in the deck at all, and putting in another goblin that has usefulness. Now the goblin of choice isn't settled yet. What do you think it should be?



  • I'm not really sure how does this list win, and that's pretty important. It does not seem to go for a quick win, like old times, but a kind of soft control with those silver bullets.

    -Goblin Recruiter is awesome with earwig and ringleader. It's kind of a 5th matron, does not give the card to your hand but is cheaper and can fetch more goblins.

    -Kiki jiki improves that soft control, duplicating effects each turn. Slow, but really powerful, and comboes with Lightning Crafter, another fine goblin when expecting mentors.

    -Bloodmark Mentor is a bad card, but if you expect tokens and aggro could work. Legion Loyalist is another version, cheaper but only works if you have several attacking goblins. But I'd play them only in more aggro versions.

    -Krenko should be bad now with all that tokens' hate. If nobody plays illness in the ranks or virulent plague, could be ok.



  • @xouman said:

    I'm not really sure how does this list win, and that's pretty important. It does not seem to go for a quick win, like old times, but a kind of soft control with those silver bullets.

    -Goblin Recruiter is awesome with earwig and ringleader. It's kind of a 5th matron, does not give the card to your hand but is cheaper and can fetch more goblins.

    -Kiki jiki improves that soft control, duplicating effects each turn. Slow, but really powerful, and comboes with Lightning Crafter, another fine goblin when expecting mentors.

    -Bloodmark Mentor is a bad card, but if you expect tokens and aggro could work. Legion Loyalist is another version, cheaper but only works if you have several attacking goblins. But I'd play them only in more aggro versions.

    -Krenko should be bad now with all that tokens' hate. If nobody plays illness in the ranks or virulent plague, could be ok.

    I had Recruiter in the deck and cut it, simply because it seemed unneeded. I like Loyalist as another screw you to Mentor. It is also another turn one play which are always nice to have.



  • But maybe I should give Recruiter another chance. It is great with cards like Ringleader and Earwig Squad.


 

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