Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • Untrue. If they block wurmcoil, they're not blocking the rest of the team. You don't need to kill them. You just have to cap them and not die.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Untrue. If they block wurmcoil, they're not blocking the rest of the team. You don't need to kill them. You just have to cap them and not die.

    They block Wurmcoil, gain 6 and you lose your Wurmcoil without gaining 6. Then they swing, you can't block lose 6 and they gain 6. I fail to see how this works out.



  • Every turn they gain 12 and deal 6. It actually takes a while to kill you with 6-damage hits. So you attack with Wurmcoil (and others), they block and take at least 0. Next cycle, it deals 3 and you gain 3. 6 and you gain 6. 9 and you gain 9, etc.

    So on turn N (where N>0) of your standoff,
    Them: Life=Life_0 + 12N - 3(N-1)^2
    You: Life=Life_0 - 6N + 3(N-1)^2

    Even though their life total shoots up, you're actually winning and the low point in your life is at Life_0 - 12. Beyond that, they're blocking the Wurmcoil and not any of your goblins so you're getting Lackey triggers and the like.

    It's worth reminding you that Sphinx is incredibly rare in the meta since it doesn't dodge Swords to Plowshares or Jace TMS. Mentor can even race Griselbrand. Big lifelinkers are no longer the Tinker target of choice.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Every turn they gain 12 and deal 6. It actually takes a while to kill you with 6-damage hits. So you attack with Wurmcoil (and others), they block and take at least 0. Next cycle, it deals 3 and you gain 3. 6 and you gain 6. 9 and you gain 9, etc.

    So on turn N (where N>0) of your standoff,
    Them: Life=Life_0 + 12N - 3(N-1)^2
    You: Life=Life_0 - 6N + 3(N-1)^2

    Even though their life total shoots up, you're actually winning and the low point in your life is at Life_0 - 12. Beyond that, they're blocking the Wurmcoil and not any of your goblins so you're getting Lackey triggers and the like.

    It's worth reminding you that Sphinx is incredibly rare in the meta since it doesn't dodge Swords to Plowshares or Jace TMS. Mentor can even race Griselbrand. Big lifelinkers are no longer the Tinker target of choice.

    So like I said, it's incredibly slow and gets thwarted by any removal they may have, especially something like Swords to Plowshares.



  • @msg67183 Maybe. They have to remove the welder, not the wurmcoil though. And again, your other critters are connecting. On top of that, weirding is one of the few spells you run, so it's much more likely to eat a flusterstorm. If you think it's so important to address that one cornercase, hurkyll's can be maindecked.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 Maybe. They have to remove the welder, not the wurmcoil though. And again, your other critters are connecting. On top of that, weirding is one of the few spells you run, so it's much more likely to eat a flusterstorm. If you think it's so important to address that one cornercase, hurkyll's can be maindecked.

    But Hurkyl's can't be Matroned for, making it worse. Weirding certainly is the worst card in my main deck, but its a necessary evil I feel.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 Maybe. They have to remove the welder, not the wurmcoil though. And again, your other critters are connecting. On top of that, weirding is one of the few spells you run, so it's much more likely to eat a flusterstorm. If you think it's so important to address that one cornercase, hurkyll's can be maindecked.

    All they have to do is Swords the Wurmcoil and you can no longer recur it, so it makes Welder fairly worthless.



  • @msg67183 What ever happened to good ole stingscourger as an answer to tinker?



  • @Stormanimagus said:

    @msg67183 What ever happened to good ole stingscourger as an answer to tinker?

    I run Stingscourger, but he can't hit Sphinx.



  • If sphinx appears, you lose. Even if you play warren weirding, they'll have the fow most of the time, they are not going to waste it in other things. If you are really afraid about it, play metamorph, since it's a creature and can trade or at least give you time to win.
    You also are playing earwig, and sphinx should be a good target to remove.
    To be honest, I don't expect lots of sphinx, if you do the best plan is to maindeck cage.



  • @xouman said:

    If sphinx appears, you lose. Even if you play warren weirding, they'll have the fow most of the time, they are not going to waste it in other things. If you are really afraid about it, play metamorph, since it's a creature and can trade or at least give you time to win.
    You also are playing earwig, and sphinx should be a good target to remove.
    To be honest, I don't expect lots of sphinx, if you do the best plan is to maindeck cage.

    I am simply saying screw it, cut the Weirding since it is the worst card in the deck at all, and putting in another goblin that has usefulness. Now the goblin of choice isn't settled yet. What do you think it should be?



  • I'm not really sure how does this list win, and that's pretty important. It does not seem to go for a quick win, like old times, but a kind of soft control with those silver bullets.

    -Goblin Recruiter is awesome with earwig and ringleader. It's kind of a 5th matron, does not give the card to your hand but is cheaper and can fetch more goblins.

    -Kiki jiki improves that soft control, duplicating effects each turn. Slow, but really powerful, and comboes with Lightning Crafter, another fine goblin when expecting mentors.

    -Bloodmark Mentor is a bad card, but if you expect tokens and aggro could work. Legion Loyalist is another version, cheaper but only works if you have several attacking goblins. But I'd play them only in more aggro versions.

    -Krenko should be bad now with all that tokens' hate. If nobody plays illness in the ranks or virulent plague, could be ok.



  • @xouman said:

    I'm not really sure how does this list win, and that's pretty important. It does not seem to go for a quick win, like old times, but a kind of soft control with those silver bullets.

    -Goblin Recruiter is awesome with earwig and ringleader. It's kind of a 5th matron, does not give the card to your hand but is cheaper and can fetch more goblins.

    -Kiki jiki improves that soft control, duplicating effects each turn. Slow, but really powerful, and comboes with Lightning Crafter, another fine goblin when expecting mentors.

    -Bloodmark Mentor is a bad card, but if you expect tokens and aggro could work. Legion Loyalist is another version, cheaper but only works if you have several attacking goblins. But I'd play them only in more aggro versions.

    -Krenko should be bad now with all that tokens' hate. If nobody plays illness in the ranks or virulent plague, could be ok.

    I had Recruiter in the deck and cut it, simply because it seemed unneeded. I like Loyalist as another screw you to Mentor. It is also another turn one play which are always nice to have.



  • But maybe I should give Recruiter another chance. It is great with cards like Ringleader and Earwig Squad.



  • Taurean mauler is a goblin.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Taurean mauler is a goblin.

    And seems pretty horrible. Lol nice try, but I think ill try Recruiter again.



  • Taurean mauler is never smaller than mentor and it's a horror for thing in the ice



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Taurean mauler is never smaller than mentor and it's a horror for thing in the ice

    Interesting idea honestly. If I am cutting Warren Weirding are two Badlands needed? If all I'm needing black for is Earwig Squad and that can be cast off Cavern, also to note, I cut Leyline of the Void in favor of Tormod's Crypt since I can just draw into it.



  • I´ve played goblins occasionally for a few years and my impression is that the tribe is increasingly lagging behind other decks due to a lack of relevant new printings. That said, it´s got the tools to hate on top decks if metagamed properly. The number one decision when building, in my opinion, is to choose between clamp or null rod. Secondly, how greedy the manabase should be. In my current list I stretch it to play non-goblin black spells (since they are very, very strong when they resolve and equally synergistic). This deck wants to play a goblin, a therapy and prowl and earwig by turn 2 and goes to great lengths to make it happen:

    1 black lotus
    1 mana crypt
    1 mox ruby
    1 mox jet
    1 mox emerald
    1 mox sapphire
    1 mox pearl
    3 skullclamp

    4 earwig squad
    4 goblin lackey
    4 goblin matron
    4 goblin ringleader (In no way would I recommend cutting here, but observe what moxen over spirit guides do to the castability of these.)
    4 tin-street hooligan (The tribe lacks good low-drops. This is the best in my opinion. Can easily be clamped or therapied away for value and is easy enough to cast.)
    3 stingscourger (As long as I play therapy and clamp, I prefer this to any other piece of removal.)
    1 goblin sharpshooter
    1 grenzo, dungeon warden (I haven´t gotten to test him, but the synergy with therapies and fast mana seems very appealing.)
    1 siege-gang commander (Not my favourite, but synergizes well with clamp and therapy.)
    1 skirk prospector (What this deck needs most is a good 1-drop. Prospector is better in this build than in many others, due to clamp.)

    1 demonic consultation
    4 cabal therapy (Which is the deck´s "solution" to the combo problem alongside Earwig.)

    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Mountain
    3 Badlands
    1 Bayou (I have a hard time deciding between taiga and bayou for this slot. This is where stretching the manabase hurts the most)
    4 Wooded foothills
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wasteland (As soon as I figure out which creature to cut, this bounces back up to 4)
    1 Strip mine

    Sideboard:
    4 Grafdigger´s cage (Better with conultation than leyline. Together, this brings the oath hate up to a healthy level.)
    1 Goblin sharpshooter
    1 Goblin Welder (Against shops, consultation goes out, which makes having only 1 hurt less)
    1 Murderous redcap
    1 Stingscourger
    4 Surgical extraction (Check out the synergy with therapy and earwig. Many matches comes down to memorizing/registering what cards the opponents has in different zones.)
    1 Forest (Ugly, but necessary against shops)
    1 Wasteland



  • Maybe a lotus petal over a 4th simian or in conjunction with it?

    Can be used to tap for Tanglewire
    Provides black mana

    I'm not sure how this deck beats oath. Any creature deck without proactive disruption is going to have a pain of a time trying to get though a 7/7 lifelinker, and they do not need to hit orchard at all. Basically if they get down an oath you have to one shot them or you may be facing an insurmountable lead after that.


 

WAF/WHF