Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 Maybe. They have to remove the welder, not the wurmcoil though. And again, your other critters are connecting. On top of that, weirding is one of the few spells you run, so it's much more likely to eat a flusterstorm. If you think it's so important to address that one cornercase, hurkyll's can be maindecked.

    All they have to do is Swords the Wurmcoil and you can no longer recur it, so it makes Welder fairly worthless.



  • @msg67183 What ever happened to good ole stingscourger as an answer to tinker?



  • @Stormanimagus said:

    @msg67183 What ever happened to good ole stingscourger as an answer to tinker?

    I run Stingscourger, but he can't hit Sphinx.



  • If sphinx appears, you lose. Even if you play warren weirding, they'll have the fow most of the time, they are not going to waste it in other things. If you are really afraid about it, play metamorph, since it's a creature and can trade or at least give you time to win.
    You also are playing earwig, and sphinx should be a good target to remove.
    To be honest, I don't expect lots of sphinx, if you do the best plan is to maindeck cage.



  • @xouman said:

    If sphinx appears, you lose. Even if you play warren weirding, they'll have the fow most of the time, they are not going to waste it in other things. If you are really afraid about it, play metamorph, since it's a creature and can trade or at least give you time to win.
    You also are playing earwig, and sphinx should be a good target to remove.
    To be honest, I don't expect lots of sphinx, if you do the best plan is to maindeck cage.

    I am simply saying screw it, cut the Weirding since it is the worst card in the deck at all, and putting in another goblin that has usefulness. Now the goblin of choice isn't settled yet. What do you think it should be?



  • I'm not really sure how does this list win, and that's pretty important. It does not seem to go for a quick win, like old times, but a kind of soft control with those silver bullets.

    -Goblin Recruiter is awesome with earwig and ringleader. It's kind of a 5th matron, does not give the card to your hand but is cheaper and can fetch more goblins.

    -Kiki jiki improves that soft control, duplicating effects each turn. Slow, but really powerful, and comboes with Lightning Crafter, another fine goblin when expecting mentors.

    -Bloodmark Mentor is a bad card, but if you expect tokens and aggro could work. Legion Loyalist is another version, cheaper but only works if you have several attacking goblins. But I'd play them only in more aggro versions.

    -Krenko should be bad now with all that tokens' hate. If nobody plays illness in the ranks or virulent plague, could be ok.



  • @xouman said:

    I'm not really sure how does this list win, and that's pretty important. It does not seem to go for a quick win, like old times, but a kind of soft control with those silver bullets.

    -Goblin Recruiter is awesome with earwig and ringleader. It's kind of a 5th matron, does not give the card to your hand but is cheaper and can fetch more goblins.

    -Kiki jiki improves that soft control, duplicating effects each turn. Slow, but really powerful, and comboes with Lightning Crafter, another fine goblin when expecting mentors.

    -Bloodmark Mentor is a bad card, but if you expect tokens and aggro could work. Legion Loyalist is another version, cheaper but only works if you have several attacking goblins. But I'd play them only in more aggro versions.

    -Krenko should be bad now with all that tokens' hate. If nobody plays illness in the ranks or virulent plague, could be ok.

    I had Recruiter in the deck and cut it, simply because it seemed unneeded. I like Loyalist as another screw you to Mentor. It is also another turn one play which are always nice to have.



  • But maybe I should give Recruiter another chance. It is great with cards like Ringleader and Earwig Squad.



  • Taurean mauler is a goblin.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Taurean mauler is a goblin.

    And seems pretty horrible. Lol nice try, but I think ill try Recruiter again.



  • Taurean mauler is never smaller than mentor and it's a horror for thing in the ice



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Taurean mauler is never smaller than mentor and it's a horror for thing in the ice

    Interesting idea honestly. If I am cutting Warren Weirding are two Badlands needed? If all I'm needing black for is Earwig Squad and that can be cast off Cavern, also to note, I cut Leyline of the Void in favor of Tormod's Crypt since I can just draw into it.



  • I´ve played goblins occasionally for a few years and my impression is that the tribe is increasingly lagging behind other decks due to a lack of relevant new printings. That said, it´s got the tools to hate on top decks if metagamed properly. The number one decision when building, in my opinion, is to choose between clamp or null rod. Secondly, how greedy the manabase should be. In my current list I stretch it to play non-goblin black spells (since they are very, very strong when they resolve and equally synergistic). This deck wants to play a goblin, a therapy and prowl and earwig by turn 2 and goes to great lengths to make it happen:

    1 black lotus
    1 mana crypt
    1 mox ruby
    1 mox jet
    1 mox emerald
    1 mox sapphire
    1 mox pearl
    3 skullclamp

    4 earwig squad
    4 goblin lackey
    4 goblin matron
    4 goblin ringleader (In no way would I recommend cutting here, but observe what moxen over spirit guides do to the castability of these.)
    4 tin-street hooligan (The tribe lacks good low-drops. This is the best in my opinion. Can easily be clamped or therapied away for value and is easy enough to cast.)
    3 stingscourger (As long as I play therapy and clamp, I prefer this to any other piece of removal.)
    1 goblin sharpshooter
    1 grenzo, dungeon warden (I haven´t gotten to test him, but the synergy with therapies and fast mana seems very appealing.)
    1 siege-gang commander (Not my favourite, but synergizes well with clamp and therapy.)
    1 skirk prospector (What this deck needs most is a good 1-drop. Prospector is better in this build than in many others, due to clamp.)

    1 demonic consultation
    4 cabal therapy (Which is the deck´s "solution" to the combo problem alongside Earwig.)

    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Mountain
    3 Badlands
    1 Bayou (I have a hard time deciding between taiga and bayou for this slot. This is where stretching the manabase hurts the most)
    4 Wooded foothills
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wasteland (As soon as I figure out which creature to cut, this bounces back up to 4)
    1 Strip mine

    Sideboard:
    4 Grafdigger´s cage (Better with conultation than leyline. Together, this brings the oath hate up to a healthy level.)
    1 Goblin sharpshooter
    1 Goblin Welder (Against shops, consultation goes out, which makes having only 1 hurt less)
    1 Murderous redcap
    1 Stingscourger
    4 Surgical extraction (Check out the synergy with therapy and earwig. Many matches comes down to memorizing/registering what cards the opponents has in different zones.)
    1 Forest (Ugly, but necessary against shops)
    1 Wasteland



  • Maybe a lotus petal over a 4th simian or in conjunction with it?

    Can be used to tap for Tanglewire
    Provides black mana

    I'm not sure how this deck beats oath. Any creature deck without proactive disruption is going to have a pain of a time trying to get though a 7/7 lifelinker, and they do not need to hit orchard at all. Basically if they get down an oath you have to one shot them or you may be facing an insurmountable lead after that.



  • @Recklessmbermage said:

    3 stingscourger (As long as I play therapy and clamp, I prefer this to any other piece of removal.)

    Sideboard:
    4 Grafdigger´s cage (Better with conultation than leyline. Together, this brings the oath hate up to a healthy level.)
    1 Stingscourger

    @Protoaddct I think that's actually decent vs Griselbrand. The stingscourger will be un-counterable due to cavern most of the time but I also like Aether Vial in goblins.



  • @Recklessmbermage said:

    I´ve played goblins occasionally for a few years and my impression is that the tribe is increasingly lagging behind other decks due to a lack of relevant new printings. That said, it´s got the tools to hate on top decks if metagamed properly. The number one decision when building, in my opinion, is to choose between clamp or null rod. Secondly, how greedy the manabase should be. In my current list I stretch it to play non-goblin black spells (since they are very, very strong when they resolve and equally synergistic). This deck wants to play a goblin, a therapy and prowl and earwig by turn 2 and goes to great lengths to make it happen:

    1 black lotus
    1 mana crypt
    1 mox ruby
    1 mox jet
    1 mox emerald
    1 mox sapphire
    1 mox pearl
    3 skullclamp

    4 earwig squad
    4 goblin lackey
    4 goblin matron
    4 goblin ringleader (In no way would I recommend cutting here, but observe what moxen over spirit guides do to the castability of these.)
    4 tin-street hooligan (The tribe lacks good low-drops. This is the best in my opinion. Can easily be clamped or therapied away for value and is easy enough to cast.)
    3 stingscourger (As long as I play therapy and clamp, I prefer this to any other piece of removal.)
    1 goblin sharpshooter
    1 grenzo, dungeon warden (I haven´t gotten to test him, but the synergy with therapies and fast mana seems very appealing.)
    1 siege-gang commander (Not my favourite, but synergizes well with clamp and therapy.)
    1 skirk prospector (What this deck needs most is a good 1-drop. Prospector is better in this build than in many others, due to clamp.)

    1 demonic consultation
    4 cabal therapy (Which is the deck´s "solution" to the combo problem alongside Earwig.)

    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Mountain
    3 Badlands
    1 Bayou (I have a hard time deciding between taiga and bayou for this slot. This is where stretching the manabase hurts the most)
    4 Wooded foothills
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wasteland (As soon as I figure out which creature to cut, this bounces back up to 4)
    1 Strip mine

    Sideboard:
    4 Grafdigger´s cage (Better with conultation than leyline. Together, this brings the oath hate up to a healthy level.)
    1 Goblin sharpshooter
    1 Goblin Welder (Against shops, consultation goes out, which makes having only 1 hurt less)
    1 Murderous redcap
    1 Stingscourger
    4 Surgical extraction (Check out the synergy with therapy and earwig. Many matches comes down to memorizing/registering what cards the opponents has in different zones.)
    1 Forest (Ugly, but necessary against shops)
    1 Wasteland

    I like the list, it actually made me make a few changes to my build to help my Oath matchup more (up Stingscourger to 3 main, 1 board, replace Tormod's with Cages). I like the idea behind playing Therapy, it really helps to be disruptive, I just don't want that many non goblins. I prefer Null Rod in Vintage due to its power, but that's just preference.



  • @Recklessmbermage Three questions:

    1. What do you therapy turn 1 knowing that your opponent is on Draw 7 combo?
    2. Can you comment on your decision not to run a Lord? Eg. Goblin King to mountainwalk past Mentor or Chieftain to significant hasten your clock.
    3. Why doesn't Demonic Tutor make the cut?


  • I would at least run Warchief, as it bypasses sphere effects, ir helps cast through them. I never really considered Skullclamp as i figured it wasn't good enough in Goblins since Vintage is all about broken spells and such, could you clarify your decision to include the card over Null Rod?



  • @msg67183 Have you ever considered Warren Instigator? I ran him alongside Lackey during my Goblin days around 2013. He was always an MVP when you have 4x Simian Spirit Guides as part of the deck.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @Recklessmbermage Three questions:

    1. What do you therapy turn 1 knowing that your opponent is on Draw 7 combo?
    2. Can you comment on your decision not to run a Lord? Eg. Goblin King to mountainwalk past Mentor or Chieftain to significant hasten your clock.
    3. Why doesn't Demonic Tutor make the cut?

    Hi AmbivalentDuck! We used to go back and fourth on goblins a few years ago. You convinced me of running power with gobbos.

    Therapy turn one against someone playing some fast non-dredge combo deck would typically aim at some likely 3-4 of, with the goal of slowing the player down. Dark ritual is one obvious choice. Alternatively, if I have no cavern but otherwise a hand that looks like it can prowl out earwig turn two, force of will is a decent option. Therapy is obviously better when you have a good idea of what the opponent is on and I play in a small group.

    At least one lord tends to be a good choice. I like chieftain in the main and/or king in the side. This particular build is much more an engine than a beatdown deck and I favor creatures that are as synergistic as possible. The deck will frequently have few creatures in play and increasing toughness to 2 can lead to less explosive turns if the deck is operating as it´s designed to. That said, I will consider what I could cut from the board for a king. King might be stronger against any red deck playing a healthy amount of creatures (delver, grixis, blue moon) than redcap is.

    DT doesn´t give enough bang for the buck in my opinion. There are no absurd targets here (yawgwin, tinker) and the mana isn´t ample enough to make demonic for clamp a good play in most circumstances.


 

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