Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage



  • @Topical_Island You're underestimating the effect of taking Shops, Bridges, and Mentors out of their respective decks. It slows them down enough that any mild disruption backing you would let you ride the 5/3 body to victory.



  • @AmbivalentDuck I guarantee it. ;)



  • What are your guys thoughts on Hooligan without Taiga? Should it be a second Tinkerer or Welder?



  • Here is my current list in a list form to make it easier on everyone's eyes, I would like to have any feedback anyone might have and I'm still not certain on Hooligan's spot in the board yet:

    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Mountain
    2 Badlands
    4 Wasteland
    Strip Mine
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    Black Lotus
    Mox Ruby

    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Earwig Squad
    3 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Skirk Prospector
    1 Goblin Tinkerer
    1 Goblin Welder
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
    1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
    1 Warren Weirding

    3 Null Rod

    Sideboard

    4 Pyrostatic Pillar
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Sulfur Elemental
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Tin Street Hooligan

    So here is my updated list, what are everyone's thoughts looking at it in a list form?



  • My thought is that you're still making wild presumptions. You said you don't want blue. Not that it wouldn't make the deck better. That you don't want it. If your goal is to do what you want, why ask us at all? If your goal is to build the best deck you can, put in power 8 and try it out.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    My thought is that you're still making wild presumptions. You said you don't want blue. Not that it wouldn't make the deck better. That you don't want it. If your goal is to do what you want, why ask us at all? If your goal is to build the best deck you can, put in power 8 and try it out.

    I honestly don't see the point in adding blue. I'm not trying to play that kind of deck. This deck is an Aggro deck that abuses Cavern of Souls more than any deck I know. I don't want non Goblin cards that aren't Mana or Null Rod for the main deck simply because it would make Ringleader worse. Before claiming that I should add blue and power 8 to the deck, test my list and see for yourself how powerful it is. I've done plenty of testing with the build, just trying to make the minor tweaks to tighten the list up.



  • I have tested it. I found it excessively reliant on Lackey ( which I don't think is even good right now!) and told you as much. Without reliable access to Lackey to cheat your high CMC goblins into play and few moxen to acceleration you, the deck was far too slow for the meta.



  • I would play Stingscourger over Warren Weirding if only because Scourger has much better interactions with Show and Tell and Grenzo. I don't know that you want or need 2x Scourger, but if you want two copies of the effect, I do think both should be critters.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    I would play Stingscourger over Warren Weirding if only because Scourger has much better interactions with Show and Tell and Grenzo. I don't know that you want or need 2x Scourger, but if you want two copies of the effect, I do think both should be critters.

    Well Warren Weirding hits a few things that Stingscourger can't, namely Sphinx of the Steel Wind. It also hits Inkwell Leviathan. I understand the logic behind wanting both to be creatures but I prefer having outs to more possibilities.



  • For example, how does your deck beat an in play Sphinx of the Steel Wind @AmbivalentDuck
    I just like having outs to every possible contingency if I can.



  • @msg67183

    Or you could sacrifice the blocked Goblin with Skirk Prospecter. Mountainwalk could be relevant as well



  • @shawnthehero said:

    @msg67183

    Or you could sacrifice the blocked Goblin with Skirk Prospecter. Mountainwalk could be relevant as well

    Mountainwalk!!!! Lol Goblin King. Not sure about that honestly. I'd rather just remove the Sphinx entirely.



  • @msg67183 said:

    For example, how does your deck beat an in play Sphinx of the Steel Wind @AmbivalentDuck
    I just like having outs to every possible contingency if I can.

    Welder recurring Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine are both sufficient. Mindslaver is an answer to most of problems that Vintage has to offer, but it's very slow.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    @msg67183 said:

    For example, how does your deck beat an in play Sphinx of the Steel Wind @AmbivalentDuck
    I just like having outs to every possible contingency if I can.

    Welder recurring Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine are both sufficient. Mindslaver is an answer to most of problems that Vintage has to offer, but it's very slow.

    How is Wurmcoil sufficient against Sphinx, he has First Strike.



  • Every time a Wurmcoil dies, you get two Wurms. If you Weld one of those Wurms (deathtouch) for Wurmcoil, now you have a Wurmcoil and a lifelink Wurm. Wash/rinse/repeat.

    Sphinx is out of fashion, though. It was good against UR Delver, but it's actually pretty bad against Mentor Gush since they have StP and the ability to just grow it to 7/7.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Every time a Wurmcoil dies, you get two Wurms. If you Weld one of those Wurms (deathtouch) for Wurmcoil, now you have a Wurmcoil and a lifelink Wurm. Wash/rinse/repeat.

    Sphinx is out of fashion, though. It was good against UR Delver, but it's actually pretty bad against Mentor Gush since they have StP and the ability to just grow it to 7/7.

    So your plan is to simply make a bunch of 3/3 lifelink wurms to combat a 6/6 flying lifelinker with first strike and vigilance. It might work but I don't see it, seems slow to be honest.
    It may be out of favor but I just like being prepared for it just in case. Blightsteel is alot easier to answer of course.



  • With that plan you need 3 Lifelinking Wurms just to break even.



  • Untrue. If they block wurmcoil, they're not blocking the rest of the team. You don't need to kill them. You just have to cap them and not die.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Untrue. If they block wurmcoil, they're not blocking the rest of the team. You don't need to kill them. You just have to cap them and not die.

    They block Wurmcoil, gain 6 and you lose your Wurmcoil without gaining 6. Then they swing, you can't block lose 6 and they gain 6. I fail to see how this works out.



  • Every turn they gain 12 and deal 6. It actually takes a while to kill you with 6-damage hits. So you attack with Wurmcoil (and others), they block and take at least 0. Next cycle, it deals 3 and you gain 3. 6 and you gain 6. 9 and you gain 9, etc.

    So on turn N (where N>0) of your standoff,
    Them: Life=Life_0 + 12N - 3(N-1)^2
    You: Life=Life_0 - 6N + 3(N-1)^2

    Even though their life total shoots up, you're actually winning and the low point in your life is at Life_0 - 12. Beyond that, they're blocking the Wurmcoil and not any of your goblins so you're getting Lackey triggers and the like.

    It's worth reminding you that Sphinx is incredibly rare in the meta since it doesn't dodge Swords to Plowshares or Jace TMS. Mentor can even race Griselbrand. Big lifelinkers are no longer the Tinker target of choice.


 

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