Damping Sphere



  • @aelien said in Damping Sphere:

    @desolutionist making shops tap for 1 and making ancient tomb tap for 1 while still dealing 2 damage to you seems pretty bad to me.
    Edit: The taxing effect also doesn't affect the first spell played in a turn. Just at the third spell this taxes more than thorn/sphere, I'm not sure that this is worth crippling your own mananase for. On the other hand, this not affecting the first spell might just be the reason that crippling your mananase is slightly tolerable...I'm not sure, but in shops this mostly seems like self hate to me.

    Shops run CotV even though it hurts them a ton if they don't have moxen out already. The whole point of this really is to slam it down like any other sphere, after you have done what you need to do. If played correctly you still break parity with your opponent because you got your non land sources out first, and if you get it out turn one in the mirror your opponent is most likely dead already. Most of workshops manabase is so low to the ground right now anyway that shops tapping for one almost does not matter once you are past the first turn.

    A sick opener in shops is going to be Workshops, Foundry Inspector, any moxen/sol ring/etc you have, and then any sphere, including this. This is actually the best sphere you can play when you are ahead in the mirror by quite a bit, because by itself it stops them from generating multiple mana and basically stops them from having any chance of getting inspector online and digging out from behind your taxing effects. In many ways this is a turn one win for shops that just maybe does not manifest until a few turns later and makes the coinflippy nature of the deck even worse.

    All that said, I am inclined to believe that shops will not run a full compliment of them in the main. Probably 2-3 maindeck is the correct number because of the lists this does not affect (dredge and oath come to mind) and then the rest in the board for decks with storm components. Mox opal is def going up in value for shops, and I would not be surprised to see eldrazi get a bump just because of how good this plays in a deck with cost reduction instead of moxen and null rod.



  • @tittliewinks22 @Protoaddct Those are all fringe decks at best. You're not cutting good stuff like Flusterstorm or whatever to put in Damping Sphere. And if you're playing any deck that can play this turn 1 (Eldrazi or monoRed or MUD) you're not cutting Thorn of Amethyst or other more broad hate for this. Specially because it's very easy to circumvent that by playing only 1 spell per turn until you have an answer (cantrips, discard, instants). :)



  • @fsecco said in Damping Sphere:

    @tittliewinks22 @Protoaddct Those are all fringe decks at best. You're not cutting good stuff like Flusterstorm or whatever to put in Damping Sphere. And if you're playing any deck that can play this turn 1 (Eldrazi or monoRed or MUD) you're not cutting Thorn of Amethyst or other more broad hate for this. Specially because it's very easy to circumvent that by playing only 1 spell per turn until you have an answer (cantrips, discard, instants). :)

    I'm not quite sure I understand you. I never said people would drop the other sphere for this, I suspect instead they will take the slots that the now restricted thorn once sat in.

    As for non shops lists playing this, pretty much any deck in vintage outside of dredge has enough fast mana to play this. I don't think it's fantastic in all of them, but if those lists are looking for something that hates on both storm and shops and they are not hurt by this I fail to see how this is not the go to sideboard option. That it is colorless is a huge boon to some of those lists.



  • @protoaddct We were talking about Legacy though. Sorry I forgot to quote.

    @tittliewinks22 said in Damping Sphere:

    @fsecco Stops Elves pretty well. Taxes them going off like a sphere, but also locks down their main way to beat a sphere (cradle).

    @protoaddct said in Damping Sphere:

    @fsecco said in Damping Sphere:

    @maximumcdawg What is it brutal against in Legacy? I think it's pretty much useless there.

    If you can play it turn one it's strong against affinity, tide, belcher, storm, tinfins, few other lists.



  • @desolutionist I agree with your premise. I'm not sure that's the effect of this card:

    This only hits the second spell. It's pretty hard to play multiple spells against shops as it is. I grant you, it would nerf opposing Moxen pretty good. Maybe that is huge... Idk.

    I will say, that when I beat Shops, it's usually because I got there on mana to drop that one backbreaking spell (Be it Hurkyls or Enery Flux or something else... Oath) And when I lose, it's usually because I never got there (ARGH... one mana short. SO frustrating.) Rarely do I lose because I couldn't cast a second spell. (I don't often play Xerox though... So in that case you might be/are likely right.)

    For example. If I were holding a normalish, opening Oath hand (I play Oath like 90% of the time) that included a Fetch + Force + Preordain, and an opponent on the play dropped Workshop into Damping Sphere. I would snap resolve this onto the board. It doesn't even prevent me from Forcing something else. And on my turn, I can play preordain fetching basic, and (assuming there is another blue card somewhere) I can still have Force up again on their turn. If I need to drop Oath or Hurk, this doesn't stop me from doing that. Heck, if it's Hurk, then I can play a spell on my turn, then Hurk them on their turn and Damping Sphere does nothing.

    Again - I totally agree with your statement that turning off Workshops extra mana is worth it for an extra sphere. I just don't think that this thing really counts as an extra sphere in most cases.



  • The only way I see this being played is that if a deck (perhaps Workshops) needs to dedicate more slots to proactivelly attack Storm/PO. This hurts Shops less than Null Rod does in their SB, for example.



  • @fsecco That's a false equivalence I think. Shops simply cannot run null rod while it can run this, and there are many decks in the same situation.

    I also don't agree that null rod hurts shops more or less, I think it is completely build contingent. Sphere hurts Inspector far more than rod for instance. Resolved lodestone just may not care either way, etc. I think you can run either or neither and completely justify it in many decks.


  • TMD Supporter

    @topical_island

    Yeah though one thing I’ve noticed about new shops while playing Storm is often they just want to play a Foundry Inspector and a Ravager on turn one. And then I can just play Ritual, Ritual, Demonic, etc. So I would say this new Sphere could help the Shops deck against Storm.



  • @protoaddct I'm talking about the current Ravager Shops. Null Rod is a problem card for it. Some builds use Rods on the SB to combat Storm/PO, and this is probably better than Rod for that.



  • @desolutionist You are for sure right. This is a decent card for Shops against Paradoxical (Would you main board it? If not, would you really bring it in against them when they are almost certainly bringing in Hurk? in G2 and G3?) Is there something better to bring in against them? I honestly don't know the match-up that well. Doesn't Shops just own it anyway?


  • TMD Supporter

    If this card sees any decent amount of play, it will certainly undermine the case for restricting Mental Misstep :p

    It can't be Misstepped, and makes Misstep wars much more difficult to sustain.

    Kevin and I spent a good amount of time on this card in our podcast recording. It's clear that this card has lots of Vintage potential, given that it directly affects the three most prevalent strategic approaches in the format, Shops, PO, and Xerox decks, which are spell dense.

    But, I'm also not particularly thrilled with cards designed in this manner. Like Grafdigger's Cage, I feel that cards of this type or class may inadvertently have too much influence on the format, and tend to bend the format away from powerful strategies and tactics that make Vintage appealing and fun. Making Vintage "fair" does not necessarily make it better.

    Damping Sphere may well live up to it's name, and be a big party pooper.


  • TMD Supporter

    @topical_island said in Damping Sphere:

    @desolutionist You are for sure right. This is a decent card for Shops against Paradoxical (Would you main board it? If not, would you really bring it in against them when they are almost certainly bringing in Hurk? in G2 and G3?) Is there something better to bring in against them? I honestly don't know the match-up that well. Doesn't Shops just own it anyway?

    I'm not talking about Paradoxical, I'm talking about Dark Ritual -> Dark Petition, a deck that naturally takes advantage of the current softness of Shops prison. The only relevant cards Shops has in that matchup are Sphere effects; and 6 isn't enough to always have one.



  • @smmenen said in Damping Sphere:

    But, I'm also not particularly thrilled with cards designed in this manner. Like Grafdigger's Cage, I feel that cards of this type or class may inadvertently have too much influence on the format, and tend to bend the format away from powerful strategies and tactics that make Vintage appealing and fun. Making Vintage "fair" does not necessarily make it better.

    Damping Sphere may well live up to it's name, and be a big party pooper.

    Well said, pretty much sums up my fears about this card. I have the same opinion regarding Grafdigger's Cage. It was ultimately too successful in influencing Vintage and changed it irrevocably.



  • @desolutionist Oh. I hadn't realized that. Sure, I see where you're coming from then. This card is a good card for Shops to deploy against a Dark Ritual combo deck. Overall, I'm seeing that just under 5% of vintage decks run Dark Ritual. Personally, I next to never see it. But it's out there. I suppose if you have a ton of it in your metagame, that is a concern. As for a broader evaluation of this card, it feels like Shops should not be running it for exactly this reason: the decks that it punishes best are not widely played, and it doesn't really behave as a Sphere against the most commonly played decks. Tempo Blue, Big Blue, Oath. (Dredge is an exception to this list?)

    For whatever it's worth, my prediction is that when the dust settles, this card will be a SB card against Shops for a few decks, and not a mainboard card in Shops. (And it might be a SB for shops in certain metagames... which is a really odd metagame position for a card.)

    BTW: super interesting card! The asemetric effects are very very interesting as you plug them in the metagame. Well done Wizards.



  • @smmenen said in Damping Sphere:

    But, I'm also not particularly thrilled with cards designed in this manner. Like Grafdigger's Cage, I feel that cards of this type or class may inadvertently have too much influence on the format, and tend to bend the format away from powerful strategies and tactics that make Vintage appealing and fun. Making Vintage "fair" does not necessarily make it better.

    Damping Sphere may well live up to it's name, and be a big party pooper.

    Should this be the case with this card, or Graffdiggers honestly, then restriction would at least put it in the trinisphere camp. I would not be shocked if it was restricted since they felt thorn was good enough to get the hammer as well.

    I think the issue with this card is more that it is not a direct hoser like Grafdiggers is, but has relevance in matches it is not specifically optimal in. Grafdiggers is a functionally dead card against a number of decks, where as this has game in many more match ups even if its more of a speed bump then a wall.

    Time will tell i guess, but I would not be shocked to see it eventually get a restriction out of all the cards in this set. That being said I wonder if this card actually hurts workshops, or winds up being an MVP tool for them further powering the land that has been so contentious as of late.

    If this card, which on its face looks to be engineered to be the answer to workshops, has a net positive effect on its match ups as opposed to negative as we all assume it was made for, does that go further towards strengthening the case for a workshops restriction?



  • Is there any way to abuse this in a heavy planeswalker build? Something Jeskai with Jace, Baby Jace, Dack, Narset, new Teferi, etc.? Deathrite also plays well, since it's basically a 1 mana walker... Planeswalkers break the symmetry of one spell per turn (yes, you can play more than 1, but it becomes fairly cost prohibitive), so maybe that's the best way to abuse this?



  • @smmenen I love your discussion on this card. To me, it means cut misstep add this and play Mana Drain.

    Works well in LandStill, StoneBlade, Blue Moon, BUG, and Humans decks. It can work well in a Planeswalker control deck too but this deck will need to tweaked to make this playable.

    Any combo player will need to plan to play against this using Krosan Grip or Abrupt Decay or Hurkly's Recall, maybe Wipe Away.


  • TMD Supporter

    @enderfall said in Damping Sphere:

    Is there any way to abuse this in a heavy planeswalker build? Something Jeskai with Jace, Baby Jace, Dack, Narset, new Teferi, etc.? Deathrite also plays well, since it's basically a 1 mana walker... Planeswalkers break the symmetry of one spell per turn (yes, you can play more than 1, but it becomes fairly cost prohibitive), so maybe that's the best way to abuse this?

    @ChubbyRain had 5-0 success with "Temur Gremin Wranglers" on one of his past broadcasts, a three-color planeswalker deck featuring Chandra, Torch of Defiance. The list can be found here.



  • @hierarchnoble Too bad Chandra has been marginalized by the ridiculous change in the planeswalker rules. I'll have to check out that vid though to see how that deck could have been helped by DS.


  • TMD Supporter

    @enderfall While true, I heard Jace, the Mind Sculptor is pretty good.


 

WAF/WHF

Looks like your connection to The Mana Drain was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.