Why is Crucible considered, in your opinion, to be clunky? Does it not have synergy with this deck, naturally? Not to mention when you throw 4 Bazaar into the mix? It seems like it could do work even if your mind isnt on the Orb/Fastbond/Crucible combo

is there truly no slot in this deck for a crucible?

@childe_roland My reasoning here is bi-fold. First, the way I approached building the list was trying to maximize the cards that can come out of the graveyard as a recursive spell thereby helping the deck move forward and also helping the deck protect against counterspells by making them worse to point at a recurring spell.
Second, if it wasn’t a recursive spell or restricted (I.e. null rod, exploration, etc.) I wanted it to be a card I could run in multiples to have a better chance of drawing because the deck isn’t great at searching cards, and also be able to play more than one if it got countered or a card that simply couldn’t be countered. Furthermore I wanted all the spells in the deck to generally stay at a cost of 2 or lower (only card that costs three is Krosan grip which I want because it’s guaranteed hate, I’ve cut beast within). That might sound crazy in a deck with 35 lands but a lot of the lands either don’t produce mana or don’t stay in play and if I can’t land a fastbond effect saying play land go for three turns just feels awful to play a spell that costs three. I have had plenty of games where I have had a huge abundance of lands but it’s not always the case.

In my eyes looking at crucible through this lens it had several drawbacks. 1) it was above my curve with no built in defense 2) it was a card that was almost guaranteed to get countered and it couldn’t be recurred 3) it was a card I didn’t want to run in multiples because it took spots away from other cards I really wanted in the build 4) it was a repetitive effect to the loams to some extent and I like loam a lot better with Bazaar 5) I didn’t need it for my good matchups and it felt weak in my bad matchups. What I mean here is there was a good possibility I wasn’t going to cast it against shops either due to spheres etc and would rather have loams and I never felt like I needed it there, and against dredge I just didn’t need it. Against blue it was another card to counter that I had put extra resources into and couldn’t protect meanwhile taking turns off of wastelanding them or playing a combo piece in order to get up to the requisite mana.

Yes, I will admit the card definitely has synergy with the deck and if you could land the card it is probably game over for the opponent. I will also admit that I have seen people including myself in prior builds try it and Ramunap excavator. In the end I just didn’t like it for too many reasons and wanted to be on the loam plan and stick to my build parameters to make the deck as low and streamlined as possible.

I’m not saying this is correct it’s just my opinion and I encourage you to try it if you’d like. Scary things can definitely occur with that card in play.

@poxeveryturn I personally avoid Crucible like the plague because I really don't want it Dack'd. Ramunap at least would eat a StP that would be at Larit Lage otherwise.

@emopizza very good point. Have to certainly agree with you on both accounts.

I actually won a game through a dack emblem once against a mentor opponent because they decked themself. That was a real barn burner of a game. Lol.

@poxeveryturn do you think this deck will be able to use the new damping sphere card in the sb or maindeck to shore up the storm matchup?

Chalice of the Void feels clunky. 1. We have no way to search it, 2. Its not a must counter for almost any deck (assuming the logic of placing it on 0 turn 1), 3. Placing it on 1 always burned me later. I think Id rather have a utility land or another enchantment, overloading on enchantments has been good. Right now for me its 3rd Crop Rotation to ensure we steal game one from Dredge. Post your most updated list, Id love to compare.

@stormanimagus it’s possible but I can’t say I’m a big fan of the card, it would definitely work against them in theory and would have to be in the sideboard, but the fact it’s also an artifact I think is a drawback. I love null rod against them but after seeing you’re on a null rod deck they are going to bring in Hurkyl’s effects as hard as they can to defend against it. With the new sphere it’s just a matter of the same hurkyls hitting even more artifacts on your side of the board and then they go off on their turn anyway and you still can’t interact. If anything I think normal spheres out of the side are just better because they hit more decks in the meta and immediately tax the opponent on every spell, though in testing I haven’t been a big fan of these either. It could certainly be a card worth trying, just my thoughts.

I’ve been a fan of trying to find non-artifact interaction against them because I kept getting burned so hard by the artifact hate and a lot of times they will sideboard not expecting enchantment and instant hate from the deck. So keeping in things like bogs to shut off dark petition and yawg will, bringing in chains out of the side and lately I’ve been running 2 mindbreak trap.
A lot of times they are lulled into a sense of calm by knowing you don’t interact and the traps blow them out of the water while everything else slows them down.

@rolko Here is the most recent list I’m running. Giving serious thought to a second Chains in the sideboard. Trap has been really good too in testing

Main

Artifacts
4 null rod
1 mox diamond
1mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 chalice of the void

Sorcery
4 life from the loam

Instant
3 crop rotation
3 ancient grudge
Enchantment
1 fastbond
3 manabond
3 exploration

Lands
4 bazaar of bahgdad
4 mana confluence
4 grove of the burnwillows
4 ghost quarter
4 wasteland
3 riftstone portal
3 dark depths
3 thespian’s stage
2 The tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 strip mine
1 glacial chasm
2 bojuka bog
1 karakas

Sideboard
4 abrupt decay
1 krosan grip
1 maze of ith
2 nature’s claim
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 punishing fire
2 mindbreak trap
1 chains of mephistopheles

Chains x2 has been great in the board. Emopizza also has been playing Mindbreak Trap x2 for awhile and it works well.

@rolko I’ve also been testing Abeyance and Angel’s Grace for the really fast combo decks. Angel’s Grace has been pretty busted in several test games.

I also think there’s some merit to something like rule of law or arcane lab which I’ve done some testing with in the past. That affect helps a lot of matchups and this deck can easily get away with one spell a turn because it does so much without playing spells.

One of the reasons I keep the mana confluences in over fetches and duals is to have the ability to open the board to any colors I think will be helpful and not get chocked on any color. I know a lot of people disagree with this approach but it has served me well.

Thats interesting, I also tested Arcane Lab, and also Eidolon of the Rhetoric, often times if he eats STP we win and if he doesnt they lose to playing one spell per turn. I wonder about Angels Grace, I feel like its almost too cute, but it does have built in protection. What are you afraid of, Storm/Belcher?

@rolko my main concern was bargain storm which I’ve seen an uptick in my meta lately playing paper. I am starting to think it might be too corner case though.
My idea was they blow all their resources and run straight into it and then take a long time to rebuild or it would basically act as a one mana time walk for me and I would make merit lage and swing on a turn they can’t hope to win and they really can’t respond at all to the card. I’m going to do some more testing but it might not be the best option.

Spirit of the Lab has some merit as well and also presents a reasonable clock and good defense when paired with null rod or an arcane lab effect

I dont think Angels Grace is good cause its super narrow. With a deck like this (essentially a cross between Prison and Combo), I think we want broad spectrum cards that help a variety of matches especially those that are bad. Thats one reason Rule of Law, Arcane Lab, and Eidolon of the Rhetoric, are hard to swallow for me. It can be very hard (as you've noted), to reach before turn 3 if we dont have an accelerant.

@rolko yea that’s sort of the reason I abandoned those plans. Three really does seem to high unless you know the card is going to resolve and make a different like krosan grip.

@poxeveryturn thanks for the reply. You make a lot of good points, not to mention crucible isnt played in legacy lands and that does just fine with Loam. I suppose the inclusion of fastbond makes people naturally inclined to thinking about crucible, but i suppose if we are seeing a crucible/fastbond combo as clunky, then indeed i would stand by your arugments!

@poxeveryturn said in Another 2nd place finish on Lands and encouraging others to give it a try!:

@rolko I’ve also been testing Abeyance and Angel’s Grace for the really fast combo decks. Angel’s Grace has been pretty busted in several test games.

I also think there’s some merit to something like rule of law or arcane lab which I’ve done some testing with in the past. That affect helps a lot of matchups and this deck can easily get away with one spell a turn because it does so much without playing spells.

One of the reasons I keep the mana confluences in over fetches and duals is to have the ability to open the board to any colors I think will be helpful and not get chocked on any color. I know a lot of people disagree with this approach but it has served me well.

If you're considering Abeyance and Angel's Grace the is it possible that the mana base could be altered to support Stony Silence in the main deck over Null Rod thus solving the Hurkyl's Recall issue you mentioned earlier thus allowing artifacts such as damping sphere et al. to be a more reliable sideboard option? It's possible that the constraints on the main deck mana base might not be worth the benefit but it may also be worth considering that main deck artifact destruction is much more common than main deck enchantment removal. Based on just reading this thread it seems like the change could have the added benefit of shoring up the weaker match-ups.

@aaron-patten so I have actually tried that in the past and is part of the reason for the mana confluences which allow me to easily switch colors and alternate cards.

I have tried a split between the two and at one point I was running more than 4 of the effect, which I think I’m certain metas is plausible and would consider again.
I think it can certainly be done. It does require more of a strain on the mana base and I ended up cutting it for that reason. It was significantly easier to cast the null rods especially against shops which I absolutely want to land the effect as fast as possible and was finding myself stuck with no white too often and that is a match I absolutely want to win or at least have the best chance at winning.

I have given thought to adding it back in from time to time and it is certainly a card that can be harder to remove for certain lists.

I actually saw a version of the deck that was entirely green white that ran Stony Silence and Moat. Not sure if that version is entirely viable but it was awesome to see an attempt. You also get Horizon Canopy running heavier white which offers a great cantrip and a ton of synergy with the list. Another card I’ve given a lot of thought to adding back into my list.

I'm going to stream a Lands league tomorrow with the following build:

This build is about 85% @EmoPizza, 15% @POXEVERYTURN. The three Windswept Heath is a concession to my budget, and hopefully we won't be blown out by Sorcerous Spyglass. I learned a lot from my first league with the deck, the most important being that I absolutely want a basic Forest to Ghost Quarter for. The sideboard Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, while they certainly felt useful, did so in a way that I felt was detrimental to using all 75 of our cards properly. I also loved Thespian's Stage outside of the combo and it should be a 4-of. If anyone has any feedback before tomorrow I'm all ears, and feel free to check out the stream (twitch.tv/hierarchnoble) live.

@hierarchnoble best of luck with this build! Great to see you’re trying again. First stream went well for your first time playing the deck and I will definitely be tuning in. Really glad to see this deck getting attention and people trying it out!

@hierarchnoble big congrats on the league 5-0 Mike!
Very nice of Guttershark to concede to get you there!
Giving me some mini heart attacks with some of the boarding and play decisions lol.
But So awesome to see you get there and so glad this deck will get a 5-0 posting.
This deck needs more publicity and more people talking about it. Congrats!