@aaron-patten so I have actually tried that in the past and is part of the reason for the mana confluences which allow me to easily switch colors and alternate cards.

I have tried a split between the two and at one point I was running more than 4 of the effect, which I think I’m certain metas is plausible and would consider again.
I think it can certainly be done. It does require more of a strain on the mana base and I ended up cutting it for that reason. It was significantly easier to cast the null rods especially against shops which I absolutely want to land the effect as fast as possible and was finding myself stuck with no white too often and that is a match I absolutely want to win or at least have the best chance at winning.

I have given thought to adding it back in from time to time and it is certainly a card that can be harder to remove for certain lists.

I actually saw a version of the deck that was entirely green white that ran Stony Silence and Moat. Not sure if that version is entirely viable but it was awesome to see an attempt. You also get Horizon Canopy running heavier white which offers a great cantrip and a ton of synergy with the list. Another card I’ve given a lot of thought to adding back into my list.

I'm going to stream a Lands league tomorrow with the following build:

This build is about 85% @EmoPizza, 15% @POXEVERYTURN. The three Windswept Heath is a concession to my budget, and hopefully we won't be blown out by Sorcerous Spyglass. I learned a lot from my first league with the deck, the most important being that I absolutely want a basic Forest to Ghost Quarter for. The sideboard Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, while they certainly felt useful, did so in a way that I felt was detrimental to using all 75 of our cards properly. I also loved Thespian's Stage outside of the combo and it should be a 4-of. If anyone has any feedback before tomorrow I'm all ears, and feel free to check out the stream (twitch.tv/hierarchnoble) live.

@hierarchnoble best of luck with this build! Great to see you’re trying again. First stream went well for your first time playing the deck and I will definitely be tuning in. Really glad to see this deck getting attention and people trying it out!

@hierarchnoble big congrats on the league 5-0 Mike!
Very nice of Guttershark to concede to get you there!
Giving me some mini heart attacks with some of the boarding and play decisions lol.
But So awesome to see you get there and so glad this deck will get a 5-0 posting.
This deck needs more publicity and more people talking about it. Congrats!

So I agree that we need a basic forest main. I like adopting a duality approach, I have 4 Mana Confluence but also 4 GQ so I think the forest is great as a fetchable target. Im interested in how you justify Song in the SB, it seems like they would always just counter it? Ive modified the SB to be as follows:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Natures Claim
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Urborg
2 Punishing Fire
1 Maze of Ith

Im finding that if our opponent realizes that Plansewalkers are good against us (and they are insane!), that they can leverage counterspells into mini Timewalks, thus testing Spyglass, its a card that usually has to be dealt with via FoW so its always a 2 for 1. Thoughts?

@hierarchnoble Ah, I very much approve of this list. I'm really sad that I missed the league, since Tuesdays are when I play my weekly Legacy. I hope you manage to run this back for another 5-0 in the future!

@rolko I agree about song of the dryads. I tested it as well and wasn’t a fan at all. It seemed really underwhelming at 3 mana and if they can’t counter it they can just remove it and continue on.
I do like spyglass, another card I think could be good here. It not only shuts off walkers but it’s also a card that can be used to shut off wastelands in certain matchups which can protect Dark Depths before you have a chance to make merit lage, which is a situation that comes up pretty often, and also shuts off storm pieces like bargain. The card has a lot of value.

I’ve had academy ruins in past builds and I think it’s a card that could certainly merit a spot in a 75 that has a lot of artifact hate. It recurs cards like Rod and Spyglass over and over and reduces a blue control opponents value to countering the spell or saves it from the grave if it gets blown up or pitched to Bazaar.

@POXEVERYTURN @EmoPizza Thanks for the love guys!

In order to preserve the stream for anyone that couldn't attend, I used non-copyrighted music for the first league of the night. The video can be found here. I have a lot to learn while playing this deck, but getting a published result is a good start. Once I have the time to review the film myself I'll try to post write a more in-depth look at the deck.

@hierarchnoble some may disagree but one thing I saw regarding side boarding was taking out the null rods against shops. In my opinion it’s extremely strong against shops it takes away not only mana but the ability to go crazy with Ballista/ravager shennanigans, overseer, etc. Also, combined with Tabernacle you can lock out a shops player really quickly and it also shuts off their only graveyard hate against you. I’ve won a lot of games via concession because they have no way out of a lock. I think it’s a lot better than Abrupt Decay in the match going 1v1 against them is often too slow especially if you need to make BG to do so which can get sketchy against another wasteland deck. Just a thought.

You’ll learn a lot the more you play the deck and as you see it can be very difficult to play at first. Stuff like not discarding Karakas I think is really important. When their only out is metamorph you can simply hold the combo one turn and make the Merit Lage as soon as the lands hit-the board with Karakas backup and ghost quarter already on board (I think this was match 4) you still won but just some thoughts.

Learning matches and outs is a really big part of playing the deck, more than other decks in the format because the deck creates a lot of unique situations and decisions. I also don’t play online and only play paper so it’s a bit different from my perspective I guess.

Again, great job overall!

Regarding Song of the Dryads:

Something nice about it is that it dodges Flusterstorm, which usually means they have to Force it or Drain it. If you think they will just remove it, you can keep a Wasteland effect open and Wasteland the enchanted permanent in response to their removal if you suspect they just want to disenchant it and move on. It makes it into a Forest, not a Basic Forest

Edit: If you have a Land Drop and a Wasteland in hand, your opponent might even let the Song resolve despite having countermagic if they (falsely) think they can just disenchant it. Just make sure you play the Wasteland as soon as you have priority after the Song resolves.

I think Song can be good if your relying on some amount of opponent misplays. I also believe most people dont understand how this deck works, and thats the advantage of it. So far the 2 Sorcerous Spyglass are good out of the SB. Have a paper event this Sun. Looking forward to testing the new configuration!

@rolko I think the element of surprise and confusion definitely helps a lot. I have played more than a handful of matches where people have no clue what’s going on and they don’t counter a spell or see a line because the deck isn’t anything they recognize.

I did have one person let a Fastbond resolve with misstep in hand. That was just foolish lol.

I also have some paper events this weekend and will be trying a different board as well as main deck forest.
I want to try the double chains in board you suggested and I’ve also been tinkering a lot with balance and want to give it a try at a local event. I think if used correctly the card can have a lot of value in the deck.

Best of luck to you!

@rolko said in Another 2nd place finish on Lands and encouraging others to give it a try!:

I think Song can be good if your relying on some amount of opponent misplays. I also believe most people dont understand how this deck works, and thats the advantage of it. So far the 2 Sorcerous Spyglass are good out of the SB. Have a paper event this Sun. Looking forward to testing the new configuration!

Cards should never be run because we assume imperfect play from the opponent, but should be run on their own merit. Song of the Dryads is being run in order to diversify the sideboard answers. Enchantments are one of the harder spell types to answer in Vintage, especially non-blue ones that cost 3 mana. A Beast Within-style catch all was something that I want access too, and I chose Song over Beast Within because it has less of a liability. This deck, unsurprisingly, is better at dealing with a leftover non-basic land than a 3/3 creature.

@hierarchnoble While I agree with your conclusions on Song (being that enchantments are one of the hardest permanent types to remove if they resolve, or harder to counter), I disagree that all cards must be run for their own face value. I believe this entire deck (and others exist), based on the premise that our opponents will in fact misplay, this deck is a psychological experiment in play style and lines of play. The less our opponent understands whats happening the more likely we will be able to exploit a minor misplay (this deck operates on a maxim of taking stock of many small accumulated advantages over time and converting them into a win).

@rolko said in Another 2nd place finish on Lands and encouraging others to give it a try!:

@hierarchnoble While I agree with your conclusions on Song (being that enchantments are one of the hardest permanent types to remove if they resolve, or harder to counter), I disagree that all cards must be run for their own face value. I believe this entire deck (and others exist), based on the premise that our opponents will in fact misplay, this deck is a psychological experiment in play style and lines of play. The less our opponent understands whats happening the more likely we will be able to exploit a minor misplay (this deck operates on a maxim of taking stock of many small accumulated advantages over time and converting them into a win).

Just because leading with Bazaar of Baghdad and passing the turn causes the opponent to incorrectly assume my deck choice doesn't mean that the deck is only a psychology experiment. All players try to broadcast misinformation in order to gain a strategic upper hand at all points in the game. That's what bluffing is. I had one of the world's leading Legacy Lands players (Jarvis Yu) Gitaxian Probe me on the play turn 1, see Glacial Chasm, and know exactly what he was up against. I beat him in 3.

What would be a better hypothesis, and one that @POXEVERYTURN has articulated, is that current deck choices aren't strategically equipped to deal with Lands. People get up in arms about how inbred blue is, talking about how maindeck Pyroblasts make no sense otherwise. Blue pilots build for blue and board for Oath, Dredge, and especially Shops. What if they had to build for another deck and simply can't squeeze any more countermeasures into their 75? I believe Lands to be that other deck, and I've had success so far attacking a metagame that is not prepared for a Prison deck that can pivot and combo off with an early Marit Lage.

@hierarchnoble I think your parable about Jarvis and misinformation speaks to another point. However I see the stragetic side differently (thats a personal difference of theory), I like discussion and dont want anyone to feel as though Im trying to debunk their play or ideals, so for sake of high ground I think we will agree to disagree on that point. Congrats on the finish and I look forward to continued development of theory with the deck and with you! I appreciate the work you do and always enjoy a fresh perspective, it keeps me grounded in facts.

@rolko Thank you for being the bigger man than me. TMD makes me weary of the intentions of others more than any other platform.

@Brass-Man Is there a fancy chop-and-move you can perform to take a chunk of this thread and move it to Vintage Strategy?

@hierarchnoble Do we have a Lands thread? If not, we should probably make one.

Also, how much of this do we want to move? We should give Brassy more specifics as to make it easier for him to "get right". Maybe we just cherry-pick everything onto a dedicated Lands thread?

@emopizza It looks like he moved the whole damn thing and renamed it, and honestly that was the best option. Thanks @Brass-Man!

Good call @hierarchnoble and @EmoPizza This thread feels strategy-centric enough for me to just move the whole thing over.

@POXEVERYTURN I renamed the thread to make it more generic-vintage-strategy-ish, but feel free to re-rename it.

Just a reminder that now that the thread is in Strategy there will be stricter rules around B&R discussion (I only mention this because of the jokes in the first few posts, which are completely innocent - I don't imagine that we'll actually have a problem in this thread)

In the future I definitely have the ability to fork a thread onto a different forum if it makes sense, but in this case it seemed like the focus of the thread was already strategy, so that made it easier for me