There will be Jund



  • Every deck in the format needs efficient mana acceleration beyond moxen.

    • MUD has Tomb and Workshop
    • Dredge has Bazaar
    • Storm has Rituals
    • Blue decks have Force of Will (turns all blue cards into rituals considering the fair cost of Counterspell is UU)
    • Fish/Hatebears have Spirit Guides and DRS/Hierarch

    The intrinsic problem of the super-archetype is that its acceleration isn't as good as the other pillars. (All the reason why White Eldrazi was the best Thalia deck the format has seen.) Every designer who has spent time in splashing around with these decks comes to appreciate this fundamental flaw.

    Keep on fighting the good fight.



  • @wappla said in There will be Jund:

    Every deck in the format needs efficient mana acceleration beyond moxen.

    That's "sorta" true. I think conceivably if your deck was low enough on the curve maybe not. Lands kinda does not need it even though it does it by virtue of what it is. Dredge uses bazaar as a replacement but really its because all of dredges stuff is free.

    I'm not saying that deck actually exists but I could imagine a freespell.dec ala affinity of old just having a mana free way of going off one day. It's cheating costs that is more important than mana acceleration, which is just a method of cheating costs at the end of the day. Semantics I guess.


  • TMD Supporter

    @wappla said in There will be Jund:

    Every deck in the format needs efficient mana acceleration beyond moxen.

    • MUD has Tomb and Workshop
    • Dredge has Bazaar
    • Storm has Rituals
    • Blue decks have Force of Will (turns all blue cards into rituals considering the fair cost of Counterspell is UU)
    • Fish/Hatebears have Spirit Guides and DRS/Hierarch

    The intrinsic problem of the super-archetype is that its acceleration isn't as good as the other pillars. (All the reason why White Eldrazi was the best Thalia deck the format has seen.) Every designer who has spent time in splashing around with these decks comes to appreciate this fundamental flaw.

    Keep on fighting the good fight.

    By your definition, this makes Bloodbraid Elf the acceleration. Perhaps there's a way to better maximize Bloodbraid's potential?



  • Right, haven't thought about cascading. Still, I'm not sure the spirit guides would be good as it's kinda bad when comes to hand (I don't see a lotus petal in this kind of deck being really good, but maybe it is), and is speeds a little bit the clock when cascaded. I agree with you as to accelerants density, but I think the upside of being reusable overcomes the downside of being a bad cascade target.

    About acceleration, I don't think BBE is acceleration, since it's very overcosted for a 3-2 haste, I don't think we should consider as if the second spell is free. I'd say the second spell costs 2 mana in terms of card power/cost (3/2 haste seems like something we'd want for 2 mana tops). It's card advantage, but not acceleration IMO.

    In regards of tarmogoyf, tbh I was just trying to go another route to not have to spend a lot in 3 or 4 (since BBE's unban in modern it's really gotten overpriced), maybe even find something better. Pyromancer sounds kinda bad in this deck due to instant/sorcery density, goyf seems really betterthan it at least.

    It's really hard to get an oppinion of the deck without playing it, as it's so different from what we are used to see in the format. But still, I think scab-clan berserker sounds too amazing in vintage. It's not worth very much when not cast on T0 against shops, and against dredge at any point, but against blue decks it's just awesome when it sticks. I think with 6 0mana accelerants and 4 DRS we can rely on it for turn 2 most of the times, and it sounds enough to consider running 2.

    I wish I had the resources to play it now (as tarmogoyf seems really necessary for the deck), I think I'll have it soon and then have a more concrete oppinion about it.



  • @hierarchnoble No, Bloodbraid is not acceleration the same way Dark Petition and Chandra, Torch of Defiance, are not acceleration.



  • @wappla Chandra is acceleration in thee way that Hedron Archive is acceleration. It's not usually meaningful for Vintage, but in the strictest sense, it absolutely is.

    Especially if you're hard casting Inferno Titan or the like 🙂



  • I'm talking about Moxen and Mishra's Workshop. You're talking about Hedron Archive. You're correct identifying Chandra and Bloodbraid as belonging to the latter category.


  • TMD Supporter

    And with that, the thread is no longer a discussion about Jund.



  • @wappla Are you talking about zero investment acceleration? Chandra doesn't count because you need to invest 4 to get 3 later. Where does Dark Ritual fit, does it count as this kind of acceleration?



  • @hierarchnoble As is tradition on the Drain.

    I give us about 10 more posts before someone shouts "Restrict mental Misstep!"

    That said, re: Jund--I feel like we should be casting at least some deck smoothers. Maybe something like Faithless Looting? Or Sylvan Library?

    Just having 2x Chains isn't going to solve the problem of "ah crap, they drew a lot of cards"--I'd rather have the ability to just keep on K-Commanding/Scab Clan Berserkering them.


 

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