@protoaddct said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

@hierarchnoble I get it, I mean I play Living end in modern and combo infect in legacy. Both these decks have a combo win but also a backup plan where they can just go face with dorks as needed, since at the end of the day the deck are creature based.

The difference to me though is that the power level in those formats and with those cards is such that it affords you more opportunity to run the backup plan, and the counters to the combo are not commonly maindeck cards. When Living end gets turned off in rounds 2 and 3 because your opponent sided in grave hate, you still have what amounts to a 3 mana wrath of god. When infect cannot combo you still have a deck full of evasive creatures that do unhealable damage and get in effect double power from pumps. Goblins in vintage for the most part gets you a bunch of underpowered goblins that afford you no disruption to your opponents potential combo kills. It just does not seem well suited.

You are correct in that it does not make sense to explain an untiered Vintage Aggro-Combo deck to someone who plays an untiered Aggro-Combo deck in both Legacy and Modern. I will refrain from discussing those formats. What I would like to say is that you continue to present the "always had it" mentality from your prior posts. If I present a plan for how to win against Force of Will, you'd point out that it's soft to Abrupt Decay. If I include that, you'll cry foul that we're soft to Workshops. If I include a card that blows up Sphere of Resistance, you'll point out how we're already dead to Yawgmoth's Bargain before we can cast it. FCG is not seeking to be 60/40 against the field, and there will be bad matchups no matter what. I don't know what you play in Vintage currently, but I'm sure it's soft to something too. When it comes time to design the 60 and the 75, we will pick and choose what makes sense and make adjustments as the metagame evolves.

Have you considered chrome mox? Imprint squeeze early for acceleration, cast him late when comboing. Alot of the goblins need multiple red so I can see it being a nice supplement to a ruby.

@tittliewinks22 once you cast squee the mox turns off, of course, so it's worse than gemstone caverns

I think gemstone caverns is not a vintage card because of wasteland. My opponent puts caverns into play turn 0 I am wastelanding it to 2 for 1 my opponent.

I feel the issue with Squee is that the CMC is too much. It needed to be 1R. The double red is almost not vintage playable because of that. It's hard to think of double RR Vintage cards. Pulverize comes to mind. I give you credit though for trying to think outside the box.

@ssasala That, I think, is the real issue. The cards are probably just barely too inefficient to really be competitive.

Really--I think the deck has two things going for it. First, you can almost certainly beat shops if you want to, since you can play a gazillion ETB kill an artifact creatures, and your aggro plan isn't that bad (though Ballista makes life harder). You've got cost reducers to fight through Sphere, and cards that make many shops draws look positively embarrassing.

Second, the goblins engine is pretty dumb in the number of cards it assembles (just in raw quantity). Better still, your engine isn't just spinning its wheels, it's also getting them dead. You've got a real shot against fair blue, as you're not really all that harmed by Force of Will (most of your cards are just goblins!). Yes, we're going to get roflstomped by the unfair blue hands, but we're not just dead to the volume of cards from Ancestral if we're caverning down Ringleadeader et. al.

Our problem is that the aggro plan is the worst of all viable aggro plans, and our combo plan is likely necessary, but quite fair all things considered. It can and does fall apart to a lot of things, and it's only barely a legacy strength plan (and the legacy deck relies on Vial+mana denial). Sure, there are truly busted and unbeatable starts (Lotus, Mountain, Warchief, Piledriver x2, they're dead), but you need more going for you than other decks, and you're subject to the whims of your opener.

If black is included in lists it gives you access to Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Cabal Therapy. Also, Pyrokenesis is an option, exiling Squee to take out an army of MUD dudes, or a handful or Tokens/Snappys/Pyros/Bobs/Vryns etc etc.

Black also gives Goblins access to Earwig Squad which is just a beast of a card.

@serracollector said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

If black is included in lists it gives you access to Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Cabal Therapy. Also, Pyrokenesis is an option, exiling Squee to take out an army of MUD dudes, or a handful or Tokens/Snappys/Pyros/Bobs/Vryns etc etc.

That is an absurd amount of value.

@boerma said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

Black also gives Goblins access to Earwig Squad which hasn't been a beast of a card since people played Tinker and Tezzeret as their only win conditions, back in 2009

^ Fixed that for you.

Top notch post. Great in depth thought. I agree that Squee would be played in a food chain style list, just not sure if that list is great anymore. I’d like to see it get a few more viable cards for vintage that are good on their own.

FYI, Tin street hooligan is good in vintage.

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last edited by gkraigher

The only compact kill I see is Foundry Street Denizen. There are a ton of cute 4-card combos that involve Goblins and many more three-card combos that involve non-Goblins.

The Naya Recruiters angle may be outright better than the Goblins angle. Imperial Recruiter and Recruiter of the Guard give humans an edge. They've been printing solid humans for years, but Goblins haven't gotten any solid new toys (other than Squee) since people played Tinker and Tezzeret.

@ambivalentduck if you're casting squee infinite times all you need if FSD/tattermunge duo and a Legion Loyalist to give trample.

You can also make an infinitely large Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. Fun!

@blindtherapy said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

@ambivalentduck if you're casting squee infinite times all you need if FSD/tattermunge duo and a Legion Loyalist to give trample.

@brass-man said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

You can also make an infinitely large Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. Fun!

Unfortunately, both are 4-card combos to kill that turn.

Taking the more generic Naya 8x Recruiters angle, you can use Ballista instead. You can also rock the Aluren kill.

@hierarchnoble said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

Goblin Recruiter
Food Chain
Useless Goblin

You know only food chain is hard to get there. Everything else can be played in heavy multiples. I don't see this deck going anywhere but the design space is there. Serum Powder might be what this deck is after.

last edited by John Cox

This is likely too cute to be good, but Ill be testing this:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
4 Serum Powder
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
4 Food Chain

1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tarfire

4 Goblin Lackey
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Matron
4 Squee, the Immortal
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Earwig Squad
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gemstone Caverns
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Mountain

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Earwig Squad

The deck currently has 61 cards. Im testing out a few singletons:

-Chalice should be good in the main. The gemstone caverns makes chalice for one on turn one a reasonable proposition and it hoses the deck minimally.
-Trinisphere also hoses the deck minimally, but Im more sceptical, since its a turn two play.
-Demonic consultation should work extremely well here. It has more than 50 percent chance of hitting both Food Chain and Squee and can sometimes do it on turn zero. I also considered a one-of Spoils of the Vault, but think the life-loss will be too high too often for it to be worth it.
-Vampiric tutor is less strong. I think its better than Demonic Tutor, due to synergy with Gemstone Caverns, but will not be surprised to cut it.
-Both Siege-Gang Commander and Goblin Warchief are maindeck pieces for killing the same turn I go off. Playing both is necessary as long as I run Demonic Consultation. Note that Goblin Sharpshooter is only a utility card: I could change that by replacing Siege-Gang with a Skirk Prospector, but that makes it a two-card combo: Siege-Gang is more compact.
-The one Tarfire is there to pick off random Canonists, Pridemages and the like. It is also a fun way to pick out a utility dude on turn zero once in a blue moon.

The sideboard is built with the intention of tilting to pure RG when playing against shops and creature strategies and tilting to RB+Food Chain when playing against combo and control. Note that the deck has fully 7 cards that can interact with dredge on turn zero (4Leyline, 2Surgical, 1Consultation into Surgical) plus the 4 Serum Powders.

The synergy is there, but Im sceptical about the power level : )

last edited by Recklessmbermage

Hi folks!

I tested the list yesterday, playing three matches against big-mana grixis control, PO UBW control and PO combo with time vault. I won all six games, but that has more to do with my opponent drawing poorly than anything else. A few observations:

I only really comboed out twice. Once, food chain was merely a mana accelerator. In 3 games I just goblined the opponent to death. This is fine, of course: The aggro-plan in the deck is decent; especially against these three decks, that dont block lackey consistently.

The deck had a powerful plan 4/6 games. In the last 2, I just played little dudes, disrupted a bit and luck-sacked my wins. When the deck is doing something powerful, its because of one of these things happening:

-I played turn 1 chalice for one twice, off gemstone caverns and a mox.
-I played turn 1 lackey, which was not answered (4 caverns of souls being key).
-I played turn zero gemstone caverns.

Serum powder performed really well, I used it in 4 out of 6 games, either drawing it in the first opener or mulliganing into it. I never mulliganed below 6, and serum powder helps to not do this. I often had access to squee from exile, which helped me combo off twice. Once, I just played him from exile as a dude. Just having him there keeps the opponent nervous.

These are too few games to make many changes. Ill do this:

-1 siege-gang commander, +1 skirk prospector. In two games I explicitly wanted to recruiter for prospector, because I was stuck on two mana and unable to play food chain. This also makes sharpshooter an instant kill, so I can drop siege-gang, which is mostly an irrelevant card.

-1 matron, +1 recruiter. Matron was clunky and recruiter was less of a bad/risky card than I remembered. I recruitered for 2-5 goblins a bunch of times, typically tin-street hooligans and ringleaders. Not once did I goblin-screw myself.

Trinisphere might be bad, and both tarfire and maindeck earwig squad might be irrelevant, but I dont know yet.

@recklessmbermage I think Glimpse of Nature might be interesting. This would allow just casting tons of goblins and attacking for lethal via Warchief giving them all haste. (Recruiter works pretty well with Glimpse too!)

last edited by wfain

@recklessmbermage Thank for both the list and in-depth analysis of these games! I'm going to start testing your list as-is next week, hopefully making changes as the leagues go along throughout the month of June. If it seems promising then perhaps we can flesh out a full-blown strategy thread dedicated to FCG specifically (much like what happened with the Hollow One thread).

Wfain: Glimpse is definitely something to think about. This deck typically cant play more than two goblins per turn when its not going off though. When it goes off, ringleader does the drawing I need. But Ill have glimpse in mind when I play. 1-2 could be good.

Thanks Hierarchnoble, thats really cool! Im looking forward to reading about your results and updating the deck accordingly.

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