[DOM] Squee, the Immortal


  • TMD Supporter

    @protoaddct said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

    @hierarchnoble I get it, I mean I play Living end in modern and combo infect in legacy. Both these decks have a combo win but also a backup plan where they can just go face with dorks as needed, since at the end of the day the deck are creature based.

    The difference to me though is that the power level in those formats and with those cards is such that it affords you more opportunity to run the backup plan, and the counters to the combo are not commonly maindeck cards. When Living end gets turned off in rounds 2 and 3 because your opponent sided in grave hate, you still have what amounts to a 3 mana wrath of god. When infect cannot combo you still have a deck full of evasive creatures that do unhealable damage and get in effect double power from pumps. Goblins in vintage for the most part gets you a bunch of underpowered goblins that afford you no disruption to your opponents potential combo kills. It just does not seem well suited.

    You are correct in that it does not make sense to explain an untiered Vintage Aggro-Combo deck to someone who plays an untiered Aggro-Combo deck in both Legacy and Modern. I will refrain from discussing those formats. What I would like to say is that you continue to present the "always had it" mentality from your prior posts. If I present a plan for how to win against Force of Will, you'd point out that it's soft to Abrupt Decay. If I include that, you'll cry foul that we're soft to Workshops. If I include a card that blows up Sphere of Resistance, you'll point out how we're already dead to Yawgmoth's Bargain before we can cast it. FCG is not seeking to be 60/40 against the field, and there will be bad matchups no matter what. I don't know what you play in Vintage currently, but I'm sure it's soft to something too. When it comes time to design the 60 and the 75, we will pick and choose what makes sense and make adjustments as the metagame evolves.



  • Have you considered chrome mox? Imprint squeeze early for acceleration, cast him late when comboing. Alot of the goblins need multiple red so I can see it being a nice supplement to a ruby.



  • @tittliewinks22 once you cast squee the mox turns off, of course, so it's worse than gemstone caverns



  • I think gemstone caverns is not a vintage card because of wasteland. My opponent puts caverns into play turn 0 I am wastelanding it to 2 for 1 my opponent.

    I feel the issue with Squee is that the CMC is too much. It needed to be 1R. The double red is almost not vintage playable because of that. It's hard to think of double RR Vintage cards. Pulverize comes to mind. I give you credit though for trying to think outside the box.



  • @ssasala That, I think, is the real issue. The cards are probably just barely too inefficient to really be competitive.

    Really--I think the deck has two things going for it. First, you can almost certainly beat shops if you want to, since you can play a gazillion ETB kill an artifact creatures, and your aggro plan isn't that bad (though Ballista makes life harder). You've got cost reducers to fight through Sphere, and cards that make many shops draws look positively embarrassing.

    Second, the goblins engine is pretty dumb in the number of cards it assembles (just in raw quantity). Better still, your engine isn't just spinning its wheels, it's also getting them dead. You've got a real shot against fair blue, as you're not really all that harmed by Force of Will (most of your cards are just goblins!). Yes, we're going to get roflstomped by the unfair blue hands, but we're not just dead to the volume of cards from Ancestral if we're caverning down Ringleadeader et. al.

    Our problem is that the aggro plan is the worst of all viable aggro plans, and our combo plan is likely necessary, but quite fair all things considered. It can and does fall apart to a lot of things, and it's only barely a legacy strength plan (and the legacy deck relies on Vial+mana denial). Sure, there are truly busted and unbeatable starts (Lotus, Mountain, Warchief, Piledriver x2, they're dead), but you need more going for you than other decks, and you're subject to the whims of your opener.



  • If black is included in lists it gives you access to Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Cabal Therapy. Also, Pyrokenesis is an option, exiling Squee to take out an army of MUD dudes, or a handful or Tokens/Snappys/Pyros/Bobs/Vryns etc etc.



  • Black also gives Goblins access to Earwig Squad which is just a beast of a card.



  • @serracollector said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

    If black is included in lists it gives you access to Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Cabal Therapy. Also, Pyrokenesis is an option, exiling Squee to take out an army of MUD dudes, or a handful or Tokens/Snappys/Pyros/Bobs/Vryns etc etc.

    That is an absurd amount of value.



  • @boerma said in [DOM] Squee, the Immortal:

    Black also gives Goblins access to Earwig Squad which hasn't been a beast of a card since people played Tinker and Tezzeret as their only win conditions, back in 2009

    ^ Fixed that for you.



  • Top notch post. Great in depth thought. I agree that Squee would be played in a food chain style list, just not sure if that list is great anymore. I’d like to see it get a few more viable cards for vintage that are good on their own.

    FYI, Tin street hooligan is good in vintage.

    alt text



  • The only compact kill I see is Foundry Street Denizen. There are a ton of cute 4-card combos that involve Goblins and many more three-card combos that involve non-Goblins.

    The Naya Recruiters angle may be outright better than the Goblins angle. Imperial Recruiter and Recruiter of the Guard give humans an edge. They've been printing solid humans for years, but Goblins haven't gotten any solid new toys (other than Squee) since people played Tinker and Tezzeret.


 

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