Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe

@cutlex said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

As for the original tweet, it's nice to get some affirmation of what many Vintage aficionados have suspected for a long time but the uncertainty of which has inspired a lot of trepidation. At least I know I'll rest easier brewing and planning for events knowing that the core of my Vintage identity is safe for another few B/R cycles, at least. And, for what it's worth, I agree that Gush should probably have had similar treatment. Mentor was clearly the Lodestone Golem to Gush's MWS.

MWS?

Let the bigs dog off the leash. I.E gush,scroll,brainstorm,flash and let’s see how fast Mishra workshop drops from being a “pillar” of the format and the majority start crying to get chalice and thorn back instead of axing MWS.

At this point it’s a bunch of mish mosh. To be able to use empirical data based on meta game %’s to justify restrictions then just simply ignore them the next time around is utterly ridiculous.
The problem is that the artifacts they keep printing just keeping pushing the power creep further and further without hitting the acceleration. It’s not even like they try new mechanics with the artifacts like they do with the “blue” based cards which quickly get restricted the cards are just that silly.
I would rather play in a 4 trinisphere vs burning long vs u/r standstill era then this crap we’ve been force fed for the past 4-5 years.

@fsecco OK, I guess the point was lost in my attempt for brevity. Let me explain:

What other purpose would be to have a restricted “window”, other than to control the perceived loss of value to the card? That is the primary concern along with an exodus of Shops players who are so jaded that they just quit immediately (maybe they don’t sell right away, but if they never play a tournament for 12 months then that’s just as unhealthy for the format).

It doesn’t make practical sense. As I said, if we all decide that Vintage is better after 12 months with Shop restricted and thus keep it permanent, guess what, you essentially delayed the deflation of the market by 12 months and the players that would quit either already did it or do it at the 12 month mark. the end result is essentially the same.

Maybe that makes more sense? I’m not saying that they literally can’t do it, but that it wouldn’t make any realistic sense as it doesn’t accomplish anything.

The only positive outcome is that the format realizes that Shops is necessary and that the restriction is undone. I still think that there will be an exodus of Shops players so that there will always be a negative consequence to the temporary restriction.

Side note: I don’t believe the cost of Shops is going to be affected too much. Has anyone seen the value of Juzam Djinn lately? That card is played in exactly one (casual) format and is just as expensive. But that’s just my opinion. I know I wouldn’t sell them until I decide to sell my entire collection.

@topical_island This is how you end up with me living in your basement.

@desolutionist who are these “best Vintage players” that quit? This is not the first time I have seen that claim associated with Brainstorm. Coincidentally I often read that Brainstorm is skill testing. I don’t really agree.

Brainstorm was a huge piece that enabled the durdle-to-big-turn strategy in Vintage. It was poopy, and remains so. It let players play without a curve, or appropriate mana, or actual interaction (no a single Chain of Vapor doesn’t qualify). I see the justification for “smoothing draws”, what’s that all about? Why is it so important to be enable a deck that’s all about finding Ancestral Recall first? Why is this held up as what Vintage “should be”???

And my goodness, in the mid-2000s the kills were always the same!!! No, the difference between Goblin Welder for Mindslaver and Tendrils for 10 isn’t relevant. It was all a drive to one big turn, the flashiness of taking all the turns or the subtlety of a sideboard Empty the Warrens isn’t relevant. I’m still dead without recourse.

Today you might actually have to defend yourself proactively, against creatures and other threats of various types, and consider your curve, and your mix of air and threats. You can sometimes attack and block (though not nearly enough). We’re getting closer to the day where maindeck sweepers and value 2-for-1s are acceptable choices.

If the price to get this was “good players” leaving - it was probably worth it, and maybe more have to go. Harsh I know. Just saying.

So, how does this relate to Shops? It doesn’t really. Other than Shops is a huge reason why durdlers actually need to play defence, and play with a curve. It’s a bit too efficient at the moment, as players we probably need to do a better job of digging through the archives and turning up efficient threats.

last edited by ribby

@ribby To be fair, I'm starting to feel that the format has begun to effectively adjust.

From my own experience, and from watching numerous streamers who have run Workshop decks recently- I'd be willing to say the meta is much more hostile to shops decks now.

A combination of decks well positioned, and a lot of pain out of sideboards.

IT's only anecdotal data, but it definitely feels like the pendulum is moving.

@ribby said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

@desolutionist who are these “best Vintage players” that quit? This is not the first time I have seen that claim associated with Brainstorm. Coincidentally I often read that Brainstorm is skill testing. I don’t really agree.

Brainstorm was a huge piece that enabled the durdle-to-big-turn strategy in Vintage. It was poopy, and remains so.

How can you justify restricting a card on the basis of not liking a strategy that it enables? If by "durdle" you mean "carefully calculate a path to victory", then I would agree that is what Brainstorm enables. I liked that aspect of Vintage. Now it is so much more of just playing cards off the top.

It let players play without a curve, or appropriate mana, or actual interaction

That's bizarre. You might have to clarify those three things for me to see the point you're trying to make. I'm sure that you need all three of those things to win a game of magic.

I see the justification for “smoothing draws”, what’s that all about? Why is it so important to be enable a deck that’s all about finding Ancestral Recall first? Why is this held up as what Vintage “should be”???

It isn't about finding Ancestral Recall. It's about shuffling away excess lands, late game cards like Tendrils/Recoup, or Oath targets. It allows decks to play more combo specific and game state specific cards. It helps diversity since it enlarges the playable card pool.

And my goodness, in the mid-2000s the kills were always the same!!! No, the difference between Goblin Welder for Mindslaver and Tendrils for 10 isn’t relevant. It was all a drive to one big turn, the flashiness of taking all the turns or the subtlety of a sideboard Empty the Warrens isn’t relevant. I’m still dead without recourse.

I'm just not really sure of the point you're making since what you're saying about then is just the same as today. There's a handful of optimal win conditions and that's it.

Today you might actually have to defend yourself proactively, against creatures and other threats of various types, and consider your curve, and your mix of air and threats. You can sometimes attack and block (though not nearly enough). We’re getting closer to the day where maindeck sweepers and value 2-for-1s are acceptable choices.

That has nothing to do with Brainstorm dude. That has everything to do with printing cards like Leovold and DRS; Lodestone Golem. Creatures are better now than ever, its obvious by looking at any new set. 2 mana 3/3s with good abilities is pretty much a standard thing now. If they bring back Brainstorm, are people going to put away their Young Pyromancers, Kambals, and Phyrexian Revokers?

So, how does this relate to Shops? It doesn’t really. Other than Shops is a huge reason why durdlers actually need to play defence, and play with a curve. It’s a bit too efficient at the moment, as players we probably need to do a better job of digging through the archives and turning up efficient threats.

So the truth comes out. You're another anti-Blue Shops player. Honestly, messing around with +1/+1 and fading counters is just as durdly as casting Brainstorm. I kind of feel bad when my Shops opponent gleeful turns all their dice over, trying to find the right numbers, and then when they finally move to the end step, I cast Hurkyl's Recall.

last edited by desolutionist

Thanks, Aaron...

0_1524050958834_824b8544-8adb-407a-adc4-70653c742d18-image.png

The death of paper Vintage won't be from a restriction or an unrestriction, but from the secondary market.

@chubbyrain

Absolutely do agree from a sanctioned event standpoint, and agree to a lesser extent to non sanctioned/ proxy events. Proxy events are hurt by the secondary market, as there is a large percentage of people that won't play with proxies (I'm not one of them, but it's a foolish thing to not realize). I recently sold all my power except for Lotus (for adult reasons) and even when I'm able to go back and make the plunge to buy again, I have no clue how much power will cost by then. It may be impossible to ever justify again.

@mdkubiak You can't justify it right now. It's a bit more than 10k for a set of unlimited power.

Going to champs (or SCG Con or another sanctioned event) is a dice roll. You're bringing an easily stealable car (and for some players, a house. Roland comes to mind) to a room. I've seriously considered not bringing real power to proxy events because it's insane to take the risk.

Paper vintage feels non-viable as a growing format already. I'm close to to the youngest person at a lot of Vintage events, and I'm going on 30, where 5 years ago, the 'younger players' crew was 25, and I can hardly remember when a new player became a regular--I show up to only a few events, but it's always the same crew.

You simply cannot "graduate" to Vintage (or Legacy, to be 100% honest, though it's a lot easier to borrow decks for that format) without a high paying job--and how many of those people are really going to be active members of the community?

What I find funny is that it only took the restriction of Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void, AND Thorn of Amethyst for Workshops to become the best deck in the format.

@13nova said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

What I find funny is that it only took the restriction of Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void, AND Thorn of Amethyst for Workshops to become the best deck in the format.

Plus the restriction of Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Monastery Mentor, Gush...

Honestly, I'm glad that the Shop prices are rising. As long as it isn't only speculation, an increase in Shop numbers in the meta will reward players that are ready to meta against them. It's a lot easier to justify a suite of maindeck cards against 40% of the metagame than against 20%. Hopefully this will knock the win percentage back down.

@desolutionist Slight correction. I’m not anti-blue. I’m just anti-fun. But I do personally hate every player who has ever played blue mana in their deck.

On a serious note: we definitely view this game and what’s good for it in such different ways, and maybe I’m just gonna have to be ok with that.

To illustrate the gulf: you’re pretty ok with the idea that the way you interact with Shops is end step Hurkyl’s followed by winning on the next turn. And I think that’s a pretty disappointing interaction, and it really doesn’t add any dimension or depth to games or deckbuilding.

I love playing Islands. I’m probably pretty hypocritical as I love Preordain and you can make the same argument as Brainstorm that it is the last vestige of durdle. I don’t even think Shops are that interesting on their own (I’d prefer if people had to work harder for their big mana, like Tron). But I really dig that Shops in its current incarnation forces everyone around it to recalculate their paths to victory. I think that’s a healthier state than the idea that Vintage has “optimal win conditions”. Boo to that.

(Btw: I think we have less clear-cut optimal win conditions now than in the Brainstorm era. Or maybe better stated - I think we’re getting away from the idea of “win conditions” as a concept separate from “the normal operation of a deck” - today’s builds are a lot more cohesive, winning is more of a process rather than just the punctuation mark at the end of a sentence. But if you perceive it to be the case today still - then WotC/DCI has even more work to do to steer Vintage away from that)

last edited by ribby

@neo_altoid I'll definitely admit I was always paranoid carrying around 16k+ in a deckbox, but I loved doing it at the same time. I miss the cards and it sucks, but luckily we do have a good community in Michigan for vintage. I thought about buying Collector versions, but seems like a massive waste of money for a non tournament legal coppy

@chubbyrain said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

Thanks, Aaron...

0_1524050958834_824b8544-8adb-407a-adc4-70653c742d18-image.png

The death of paper Vintage won't be from a restriction or an unrestriction, but from the secondary market.

paper vintage can and should be free

you are not your dci number
embrace the proxy

@mediumsteve I do not need Wizard's to sanction my fun. 🙂

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