Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe



  • @chubbyrain

    Absolutely do agree from a sanctioned event standpoint, and agree to a lesser extent to non sanctioned/ proxy events. Proxy events are hurt by the secondary market, as there is a large percentage of people that won't play with proxies (I'm not one of them, but it's a foolish thing to not realize). I recently sold all my power except for Lotus (for adult reasons) and even when I'm able to go back and make the plunge to buy again, I have no clue how much power will cost by then. It may be impossible to ever justify again.



  • @mdkubiak You can't justify it right now. It's a bit more than 10k for a set of unlimited power.

    Going to champs (or SCG Con or another sanctioned event) is a dice roll. You're bringing an easily stealable car (and for some players, a house. Roland comes to mind) to a room. I've seriously considered not bringing real power to proxy events because it's insane to take the risk.

    Paper vintage feels non-viable as a growing format already. I'm close to to the youngest person at a lot of Vintage events, and I'm going on 30, where 5 years ago, the 'younger players' crew was 25, and I can hardly remember when a new player became a regular--I show up to only a few events, but it's always the same crew.

    You simply cannot "graduate" to Vintage (or Legacy, to be 100% honest, though it's a lot easier to borrow decks for that format) without a high paying job--and how many of those people are really going to be active members of the community?



  • What I find funny is that it only took the restriction of Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void, AND Thorn of Amethyst for Workshops to become the best deck in the format.



  • @13nova said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    What I find funny is that it only took the restriction of Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void, AND Thorn of Amethyst for Workshops to become the best deck in the format.

    Plus the restriction of Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Monastery Mentor, Gush...

    Honestly, I'm glad that the Shop prices are rising. As long as it isn't only speculation, an increase in Shop numbers in the meta will reward players that are ready to meta against them. It's a lot easier to justify a suite of maindeck cards against 40% of the metagame than against 20%. Hopefully this will knock the win percentage back down.



  • @desolutionist Slight correction. I’m not anti-blue. I’m just anti-fun. But I do personally hate every player who has ever played blue mana in their deck.

    On a serious note: we definitely view this game and what’s good for it in such different ways, and maybe I’m just gonna have to be ok with that.

    To illustrate the gulf: you’re pretty ok with the idea that the way you interact with Shops is end step Hurkyl’s followed by winning on the next turn. And I think that’s a pretty disappointing interaction, and it really doesn’t add any dimension or depth to games or deckbuilding.

    I love playing Islands. I’m probably pretty hypocritical as I love Preordain and you can make the same argument as Brainstorm that it is the last vestige of durdle. I don’t even think Shops are that interesting on their own (I’d prefer if people had to work harder for their big mana, like Tron). But I really dig that Shops in its current incarnation forces everyone around it to recalculate their paths to victory. I think that’s a healthier state than the idea that Vintage has “optimal win conditions”. Boo to that.

    (Btw: I think we have less clear-cut optimal win conditions now than in the Brainstorm era. Or maybe better stated - I think we’re getting away from the idea of “win conditions” as a concept separate from “the normal operation of a deck” - today’s builds are a lot more cohesive, winning is more of a process rather than just the punctuation mark at the end of a sentence. But if you perceive it to be the case today still - then WotC/DCI has even more work to do to steer Vintage away from that)



  • @neo_altoid I'll definitely admit I was always paranoid carrying around 16k+ in a deckbox, but I loved doing it at the same time. I miss the cards and it sucks, but luckily we do have a good community in Michigan for vintage. I thought about buying Collector versions, but seems like a massive waste of money for a non tournament legal coppy



  • @prospero Thanks! Derp!



  • @chubbyrain said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    Thanks, Aaron...

    0_1524050958834_824b8544-8adb-407a-adc4-70653c742d18-image.png

    The death of paper Vintage won't be from a restriction or an unrestriction, but from the secondary market.

    paper vintage can and should be free



  • you are not your dci number
    embrace the proxy



  • @mediumsteve I do not need Wizard's to sanction my fun. :)



  • @cutlex That's the issue though. It is probably speculators and collectors, who now think that their investment is 'safe' because Workshops is a pillar, similar to the speculation on reserved list cards. This is an increase in the price of Shops that means fewer people will be playing it in sanctioned events. At champs or SCG, it makes very little sense to target shops and a lot more sense to just play the deck if you are able.



  • @chubbyrain Eh, it's not just workshops. go look at the price of an Underground Sea.





  • @chubbyrain said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    Thanks, Aaron...

    0_1524050958834_824b8544-8adb-407a-adc4-70653c742d18-image.png

    The death of paper Vintage won't be from a restriction or an unrestriction, but from the secondary market.

    One thing to consider is that this is not 100% Aaron's fault. Workshop was unbanned in MTGO Commander and that may affect paper prices as a lot of people follow MTGO rules for competitive play.



  • Even if Aaron saying that workshop is a "pillar" led to a price increase, that's not Aaron's fault either. That's all on the secondary market. You could argue that his action indirectly led to the price increase, but it's his job to maintain the format, not to keep prices within a certain range.



  • @fsecco said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    One thing to consider is that this is not 100% Aaron's fault. Workshop was unbanned in MTGO Commander and that may affect paper prices as a lot of people follow MTGO rules for competitive play.

    The unban was MTGO 1v1 Commander only. Mishra's Workshop was already unbanned in paper.



  • @hierarchnoble Agreed. Not only that, but I think demand for Workshops and Timetwister can always grow and outpace more and more power, as they are legal in even casual EDH.



  • @fisken I am all for letting those dogs off the leash to see what would happen, but using that as a way to show the importance of workshop WITHOUT also unrestricting chalice, golem, and thorn is misleading. I am all for restricting workshop. I think 1 MWS + 4x chalice, 4x thorn, 4x golem is not oppressive but still good. The fish/eldrazi decks that would be good need 4x chalice and 4x sphere. Many people would like to see MWS restricted...nobody in their right mind would advocate for its restriction without a simultaneous unrestriction of the lock pieces.

    Your suggestion is akin to saying "Unrestrict ancestral and time walk and see how oppressive blue gets...that proves we need MWS!!!"



  • @thewhitedragon69 said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    ...nobody in their right mind would advocate for its restriction without a simultaneous unrestriction of the lock pieces.

    I think a simultaneous unrestriction would be a poor choice. If Chalice/Lodestone came back and Shops's meta share didn't change, we wouldn't have learned anything and it'd have been a pointless trade. If you wanna restrict Workshop, do that, see what happens, and then decide if something needs to be unrestricted.



  • @stuart The only way that would work is if WotC decided to test the waters in phases - try Vintage sans both workshop and lock pieces, if that doesn't work, try it sans just the workshops, and if THAT doesn't work, you already know what the format looks like with JUST workshop as well as what it LOOKED like with both MWS and the lock pieces.

    If you try it WITH the lock pieces and WITHOUT MWS simultaneously and the sky doesn't fall, then you certainly did learn something - that the format can be stable without MWS.

    But that "progressive steps" approach won't happen. You know what would happen. If they restrict MWS and leave the lock pieces restricted, then Eldrazi and fish get back none of the tools they need to fight, blue/storm runs roughshod over the field, and WotC says "the sky is falling - unrestrict MWS!"

    We can be fairly confident that blue will eat a meta stripped of MWS, Eldrazi with thorn/chalice, and fish sans thorn/chalice. There's no real point in trying a world of no MWS or lock pieces since the outcome is pretty obvious. The only way to test if MWS is unnecessary for stability is if tools are made available to other decks trying to step into the newly opened space. You can't nueter MWS, but still nerf Eldrazi and all fish strategies, and expect that to show MWS is needed or not.


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