April 16, 2018 Banned And Restricted Announcement



  • Announcement Link

    Announcement Date: April 16, 2018

    All Formats:

    No Changes

    The list of all banned and restricted cards, by format, is here.

    Next B&R Announcement: July 2, 2018



  • Was there a reason to expect something would happen in Vintage for this particular announcement? DRS was getting a lot of buzz for Legacy, but that's seemingly cause we just had a GP.



  • @stuart Not really. There have been some ongoing discussions mostly regarding Mental Misstep and Mishra's Workshop but nothing too serious.



  • European eternal weekend is in less than 3 weeks, it would have been very rude from them to do (whatever) earthshaking announcement.



  • @albarkhane said in April 16, 2018 Banned And Restricted Announcement:

    European eternal weekend is in less than 3 weeks, it would have been very rude from them to do (whatever) earthshaking announcement.

    What's the proper amount of time before a big event that a change should happen? What's the proper size for the effect to be had?



  • @thecravenone I have no idea but i presume that less than a month before US/Europe/Asian eternal weekends would have been not very respectful for people who try seriously to get ready for those tournaments.
    I have been working on what i should play at european EW for several months and any kind of huge change now would have made me really angry.



  • Sadly I don't think they pay much attention to Eternal Weekends other than NA, why would they run the EU the VERY WEEKEND before the ONLY Legacy GP in Europe?
    And announcing it with like less than two months notice, while the other has been scheduled ages prior.



  • @log maybe they thought that people coming from far away might want to play both tournaments with a few days for tourism in between ? I don't know, it is just a wild guess.



  • @hierarchnoble just to answer your post on the other topic that was locked:

    @fsecco said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    "One thing to consider is that this is not 100% Aaron's fault. Workshop was unbanned in MTGO Commander and that may affect paper prices as a lot of people follow MTGO rules for competitive play."

    @hierarchnoble The unban was MTGO 1v1 Commander only. Mishra's Workshop was already unbanned in paper.

    There are a LOT of people that play 1v1 Commander IRL. So changes in the banlist do affect paper prices - just like Pauper.



  • Not having changes here and Forthythes comment on workshop lowering the possibility of a restriction makes me glad. Not because I don't think workshop is a problem in the current meta, but because i believe restricting it is the wrong way to fix this. I would still rather see a bunch of other cards unrestricted to power up the rest of the format to properly compete with shops.



  • @fsecco said in April 16, 2018 Banned And Restricted Announcement:

    @hierarchnoble just to answer your post on the other topic that was locked:

    @fsecco said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    "One thing to consider is that this is not 100% Aaron's fault. Workshop was unbanned in MTGO Commander and that may affect paper prices as a lot of people follow MTGO rules for competitive play."

    @hierarchnoble The unban was MTGO 1v1 Commander only. Mishra's Workshop was already unbanned in paper.

    There are a LOT of people that play 1v1 Commander IRL. So changes in the banlist do affect paper prices - just like Pauper.

    Paper Pauper uses the MODO B&R list and has GP side events. 1v1 Commander doesn't do either of these.



  • @aelien I think everyone would prefer an unrestriction to a restriction. The problem with this is in the execution. What would you actually unrestrict to balance the metagame? Most of the cards on the restricted list are there because they lead to uninteractive games. I know a lot of Vintage players on TMD don't really care about that, and so they advocate for cards like Flash or Fastbond being unrestricted. Or "unrestrict everything and screw everyone". But Wotc cares about it. The only unrestrictions that at first glance wouldn't lead to uninteractive games while powering up nonShops decks, would be cards like Brainstorm, Ponder, Gush, Dig, and Cruise. However, those cards don't really lead to a more diverse metagame.


  • TMD Supporter

    Fastbond would actually create more interactive games, not less IMO. Unless you don't think that the Lands deck is interactive.

    The chance that storm decks use Fastbond when Mox Opal, Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox, etc. are all unrestricted is vanishingly small.

    Windfall, on the other hand, would be used by combo decks.



  • @hierarchnoble said in April 16, 2018 Banned And Restricted Announcement:

    @fsecco said in April 16, 2018 Banned And Restricted Announcement:

    @hierarchnoble just to answer your post on the other topic that was locked:

    @fsecco said in Workshop is a pillar of vintage -Aaron Forsythe:

    "One thing to consider is that this is not 100% Aaron's fault. Workshop was unbanned in MTGO Commander and that may affect paper prices as a lot of people follow MTGO rules for competitive play."

    @hierarchnoble The unban was MTGO 1v1 Commander only. Mishra's Workshop was already unbanned in paper.

    There are a LOT of people that play 1v1 Commander IRL. So changes in the banlist do affect paper prices - just like Pauper.

    Paper Pauper uses the MODO B&R list and has GP side events. 1v1 Commander doesn't do either of these.

    I don't want to get into a parallel discussion about this, but you're wrong. Paper Competitive 1x1 Commander is divided between Duel Commander (the "french" list") and 1v1 Commander (MTGO's list). So yeah, people do use MODO B&R list in paper Commander too, and as far as I know, it's a bigger crowd than people that use Duel's list nowadays. As far as side events on GPs, I believe Commander has a lot of those too. I know for a fact that GP SP has them every year and GP Seattle also hosted Commander MTGO side events this year. So yeah, I still can't say that Aaron's statement is the only thing that made Workshops spike.



  • @smmenen No actually. I don't think Strip locking an opponent on turn 1 or pooping out a turn 2 20/20 is particularly interactive. Do you?

    Edit: I'm not saying the Lands deck can't be interactive. Just that Fastbond promotes the more broken and uninteractive draws when compared to cards like Exploration.



  • The more I think about it, the more broken unrestricted Fastbond seems. I doubt you build your deck to mimic the grindy, midrangish decks that see play in Legacy. I'm not even sure you play DD + Stage as I think it makes you vulnerable to more of what your opponent is doing. I think instead you embrace the explosiveness of Fastbond by running cards like Crucible and Ramunap Excavator over Life From the Loam, and then break the Fastbond engine. Just off the top of my head, you have Courser of Kruphix, Glacial Chasm, and Zuran Orb as ways of negating the life loss from Fastbond. After that, you pretty generate infinite mana with a Wasteland, or "draw" your deck Bazaar, and kill your opponent with whatever...a Barbarian Ring? You don't necessarily need infinite mana with the engine - you can just gain infinite life or sit behind a Clasm (or 2 to play around wasteland) that never dies. Actually, this seems really fun, though not really interactive at all. Well, in case the DCI listens, I got my "Fastbond is unrestricted starter kit". That MTGO Dark MED Foil Glacial Chasm is hawt. Can't wait until I get to see the Dark Foil Glitched Zuran Orbs.

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  • TMD Supporter

    None of that, IMO, is more “broken” than Bargain. And it was unrestricted without incident.

    Unrestricted Fastbond decks would be weak to lots of strategies, but good against tokens. It would be weak to combo, PO decks etc but good against Xerox, Workshops and some control decks. Seems like a perfect addition to the format IMO.



  • Doesn't that starter list fold to lack of Fastbond and/or Mental Misstep? Fastbond would probably need blue, but the strategy would be very different, which would be great.



  • @smmenen This is a fundamental disconnect between you and me (and the DCI). Cards aren't restricted because of 'brokenness' - they are restricted because of uninteractivity (and balance and diversity, but that is beside the point here). Unrestricting Bargain has not led to more uninteractive game play as it has seen very little effect on the Vintage metagame. I think an argument could be made that Windfall could similarly be unrestricted. Do you think that Fastbond is unlikely to see play even if unrestricted? If so, that is a valid reason to advocate for its unrestriction. If you think Fastbond would "balance out" the metagame, that isn't really valid. That means it would have to see a considerable amount of play (20% of the metagame?) and that would create a lot more uninteractive games IMO as I think the ideal Fastbond deck would be a combo-based lands deck.

    The argument "card X is not more broken than Bargain" leads to a steep cliff: are Cruise and Dig more broken? What about Flash, Necropotence, and Memory Jar? Thorn, 3Ball, and Chalice seem pretty tame in comparison. Is Mind's Desire the line or is it Channel? Which basically takes you to @Fisken's combo winter scenario. If you feel that is where Vintage should go, then fine, advocate for that. It seems WotC feels "degeneracy needs a place to stay" or whatever the precise wording was, and if the majority of players feel a certain way, Wizards will probably capitulate and go against their previous philosophy of trying to promote more interactive game play. As you said before, Vintage right now appears to be serving two masters. This is another instance of that.



  • @bazaarofbaghdad The starter list is just a collection of cards I think get better with a Fastbond restriction. I mean, pretty obviously Ankh of Mishra doesn't go in the Fastbond deck, but it and Waste effects are probably the best counters Shops has available if a "lands" deck were to see more play. Also, Mental Misstep seems great in the deck - Helps against Combo and PO, which are supposedly the weak matchups. Would probably also start with Damping Sphere in the main.


 

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