SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review



  • @hardy I thought this was a good question so I #kiblergoogled it.

    https://twitter.com/bpaf/status/988379715403689986

    The reference to the draw step is just reminder text. The rules refer to "As your precombat main phase begins" - bpaf


  • TMD Supporter

    @smmenen said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    0:55:45: Damping Sphere
    1:36:00: Squee, the Immortal
    1:37:45: Broken Bond

    My submission had to follow Damping Sphere? No wonder it got the shaft.



  • @chubbyrain I don't understand what you mean. If you bounce a Saga it resets counters, right? Does the wording change anything I'm not seeing?

    EDIT: Do you mean bouncing in response to the trigger of the last chapter? (I thought tou were talking about the "between steps" part of the text)

    @hardy they don't affect Sagas at all :)



  • @forceofnature I thought something very similar; Urza's Workshop has not been used as a card name so I was going with that and, in addition to giving you two colorless usable only for casting artifacts, having the mana from Urza's Workshop be able to be used for activating artifact abilities as well.


  • TMD Supporter

    @skeptimist said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    Describing what is or isn't a pillar of the format is certainly difficult, but I think that Smmenen's comparison of Workshop and Gush as pillars does not accurately describe the metrics that make something a pillar. Pillars hold up their own section of the format, and in tandem with other pillars allow for an equilibrium to be reached. In other words, to be a pillar it is necessary to provide structural integrity to both the surrounding archetype and the format as a whole

    This idea was suggested by Tom LaPille, but unlike tentpoles, the Pillars were never envisioned to be of roughly equal size or weight. Force of Will was always a much larger "pillar" than "Bazaar" Or "Dark Ritual."

    In other words, Pillars do not have to be balanced or perform the same heavy lifting. They never have been.

    Gush is ultimately one of many blue draw engines in the format that have come to define blue decks other the years when unrestricted (although Gush does lend itself to a certain style of blue deck). I think that there was an argument for Gush as a pillar of the format prior to Mentor and the Delve spells, but these cards in particular have blurred the line between the Comer and Weissman schools.

    I disagree here - I think the Comer and Weissman Schools still stand well apart. There is some hybridization, but I can classify various decks pretty easily into one school or other.

    Gush is no longer a defining feature of these decks as it was in RUG Delver or UR Pyromancer, but rather just another part of an amalgam of blue card advantage/velocity spells.

    But it never was, after Khans. People just thought it was. Diophan's 2014 Vintage Champs Top 8 deck had only 2 Gush. If gush was really the defining feature of the deck, it wouldn't be less than a 3-of. And more likely a 4-of. Gush's role and centrality in the Xerox school since Khans has been entirely overestimated, which is why it restricted, instead of Mentor, IMO.

    Conversely, I believe that Workshop is still necessary for the artifact prison decks to be viable, and that these decks provide an important check to other parts of the format (mostly fast combo).

    Actually, I think this is greatly overstated. In the entire history of Workshop decks, I don't think Workshop has ever been less important. In the Stax and Lodestone eras, Workshop was truly necessary to accelerate out 4cc spells on Turn 1 with some reliable frequency. That's no longer true. The best use of Shop is now just T1 Inspector, Mox, Sphere, restricted cards excepted.

    I think, more than ever, an O'Brien School strategy could survive with just 1 Workshop just fine. I don't even know that restricting Workshop would make the current slate of Ravager Shop decks fall from the top tier. Ancient Tomb + Mox = T1 Foundary Inspector, and then Turn 2 they can play the rest of their hand just the same, Steel Overseer, Ravager, and Revoker or a Sphere, and more.

    And, the White Eldrazi and Tribal Eldrazi decks - which have won and Top 8 multiple Vintage Championships - prove that you don't need Shops for artifact prison to be viable.



  • @brass-man Yargle is my homie.



  • @smmenen said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    @skeptimist said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    Conversely, I believe that Workshop is still necessary for the artifact prison decks to be viable, and that these decks provide an important check to other parts of the format (mostly fast combo).

    Actually, I think this is greatly overstated. In the entire history of Workshop decks, I don't think Workshop has ever been less important. In the Stax and Lodestone eras, Workshop was truly necessary to accelerate out 4cc spells on Turn 1 with some reliable frequency. That's no longer true. The best use of Shop is now just T1 Inspector, Mox, Sphere, restricted cards excepted.

    I think, more than ever, an O'Brien School strategy could survive with just 1 Workshop just fine. I don't even know that restricting Workshop would make the current slate of Ravager Shop decks fall from the top tier. Ancient Tomb + Mox = T1 Foundary Inspector, and then Turn 2 they can play the rest of their hand just the same, Steel Overseer, Ravager, and Revoker or a Sphere, and more.

    Not only do I whole hardheartedly agree with this, I actually think in a world where dampening sphere is going to be ever present the paradigm has shifted. Workshops now has to be able to do "something" on the draw against a player who drops a D-sphere, which will likely mean them using more non land sources like Mox opal in greater numbers and move the burden away from relying on needing a workshops in its opening grip.

    I'm not sure if any one has looked into how often workshops players not only keep an opener without shops and still win, but how often they incorrectly mulligan an otherwise fine hand because they think they need shops. My suspicion is that its much more often than you think in both cases.

    If anything I have been contending that workshops actually exacerbates the issue of D-Sphere in that it is just yet another land that allows them to play yet another sphere turn one on the play but does not provide a solid way around it. It does not contribute to robust decision making and diverse gameplay, but rather furthers the importance of being on the play. I know that sounds like it is an issue with D-sphere, and it is to some extent, but that would be far less prominent in a world where workshops did not already enable the formats most prominent deck to have turn one plays that can outright lock the game in for them on the spot.

    Honestly though, if shops were to be restricted, the deck still has more options to generate multiple mana on turn one that most other decks in the format, mana it can use to greater efficiency than most other lists:
    5+ moxen in combination with other stuff
    Lotus
    Land and mana crypt
    Tolarian academy
    Ancient tomb
    sol ring

    All workshops does is further support the decks most broken and degenerate non interactive hands, which for the most part do not have any cards over 3 mana and most of which are 2:
    Workshops - inspector - mox - Sphere
    Workshops - mox - Cotv - sphere
    Workshops - trinisphere
    Workshops - Mox - Voltaic Servant - Timevault (TBD, but this is a turn one win against someone with out a force of will or something like elvish spirit guide and natures claim)

    In light of how the deck plays now and where its mana costs are the restriction of lodestone golem seems almost trivial. I fully believe we will see that card get cut in future versions of the deck when we get some other absurd 2 mana artifact threat (voltaic servant is already an example of something like this)



  • @protoaddct said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    Honestly though, if shops were to be restricted, the deck still has more options to generate multiple mana on turn one that most other decks in the format, mana it can use to greater efficiency than most other lists:
    5+ moxen in combination with other stuff
    Lotus
    Land and mana crypt
    Tolarian academy
    Ancient tomb
    sol ring

    You are right this is true but IMHO the problem is not here:

    • What is the point to play 42 artifacts when you have 11.7% to get a restricted shop in your opening hand ? I mean, is it strategically sound to build a deck around a restricted card that is at its best in the opening hand ?

    • Is the synergy between all those artifacts strong enough that you would not want to play some colored cards instead ?

    I don't presume about the answers to these questions but i think (from a deck building point of view) that the life or death of shop archetype in the long run is more directly related to them than to anything else.

    @Smmenen
    Back to the podcast (i did not finish it yet), i was reading Aaron's words a bit differently than you. I mean about the second part (basically "we are working for people playing Legacy and Vintage now").
    My feeling is that the underlying asumption is "We don't plan to ever change the reserved list so we aknowledge that it makes the entry cost for any new Legacy or Vintage player so high that there will be only a handfull of ones in the next years. In that case, it is useless to take them in account and we better only try to care for those who are playing now". (the "care" part was adressed in his first post, for good or bad)

    Am i reading bad or is it possible ?


  • TMD Supporter

    @albarkhane said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    • What is the point to play 42 artifacts when you have 11.7% to get a restricted shop in your opening hand ? I mean, is it strategically sound to build a deck around a restricted card that is at its best in the opening hand ?

    • Is the synergy between all those artifacts strong enough that you would not want to play some colored cards instead ?

    There's an emerging archetype in Legacy, going by names such as Steel Stompy or Men of Steel, that is Workshop-free Ravager Shops. It is based around the +1/+1 counter synergy found with Steel Overseer, Walking Ballista, Hangarback Walker, and Arcbound Ravager. Arcbound Ravager also rewards you for maximizing artifacts by itself. A video of Andrea Mengucci playing the deck can be found here.

    So yes, there is more to Ravager Shops than the synergy between Mishra's Workshop and artifacts, so much so that a format that doesn't get Mishra's Workshop also has this deck in their metagame.



  • I made it through the entire podcast, and I really enjoyed it. I have a question for both of you.

    Why is Dack Fayden hands down the best Planewalker in Vintage?

    I see his utility and he did get better with the rules changes but he is also the most vulnerable to a creature decks that do not run artifacts.


  • TMD Supporter

    @moorebrother1 said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    Why is Dack Fayden hands down the best Planewalker in Vintage?

    Didn't we have this discussion already?
    http://themanadrain.com/topic/1376/dack-fayden-is-he-a-main-deck-solution-anymore



  • @albarkhane said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    @protoaddct said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    Honestly though, if shops were to be restricted, the deck still has more options to generate multiple mana on turn one that most other decks in the format, mana it can use to greater efficiency than most other lists:
    5+ moxen in combination with other stuff
    Lotus
    Land and mana crypt
    Tolarian academy
    Ancient tomb
    sol ring

    You are right this is true but IMHO the problem is not here:

    • What is the point to play 42 artifacts when you have 11.7% to get a restricted shop in your opening hand ? I mean, is it strategically sound to build a deck around a restricted card that is at its best in the opening hand ?

    • Is the synergy between all those artifacts strong enough that you would not want to play some colored cards instead ?

    I don't presume about the answers to these questions but i think (from a deck building point of view) that the life or death of shop archetype in the long run is more directly related to them than to anything else.

    What workshops does at 4x is give the deck a better chance at a playable opening hand without mulligan, but at 1x the deck still has PLENTY of playable hands. In the past the card was nessasary to actually play cards since so many were 4+ CMC, but now the average cost of the cards has dropped so substantially that there are plenty of other lands and card combos that fill the bill, even to the point where if we got new eldrazi or phyrexian mana spells the deck wanted to use, workshops could actually be a determent to it. Workshops will always be better than tomb in the deck as it is, but there are PLENTY of opening hands that are absolutley keepable without Workshops.

    A opening hand of 1 workshop and no other land and no real action is no where near as strong as an opening hand of Tomb, Strip or waste, mox, Foundry, sphere which has sorta become the gold standard for the deck.

    Outside of corner cases like dismember and Metamorph I see no real benefit in workshops using colored cards. The core of the deck still functions exceptionally well without 3 workshops and there is some utility to be gained in being forced to run 3 different cards in thoes slots, as the second workshops is usually not at good as the first. Now I'm not saying Zhalfirin Void suddenly sees play here, but being able to cavern of souls out an uncounterable revoker has some real utility for the deck that has not been touched in prior itterations just because of the raw power of workshops.

    The only case I can see right now for colored spells is honestly artifact removal to deal with D-sphere, but I think that it may take more than just a splash to work, if D-sphere warps play for the deck it may have to change format substantially to accomidate for colored mana. Even if the answer is something like Sylvok Replica, the deck is drastically short on reliable colored mana source options.



  • @protoaddct If Shops is restricted there's a high chance it becomes a combination of Shops, City of Traitors and Ghost Quarters and remains basically unchanged. The thing that changes the most is that 4+ mana cards become way less useful. For example, Witchbane Orb is no longer an answer to Tendrils.



  • @hierarchnoble
    Thank you for the link but i know that deck and what it is worth in the current Legacy meta. There is obviously a competitive potential for that synergy in the Legacy format but only future will tell what it is really worth.
    Actually, the most important point in that part of my post was the sentence just after what you quoted, namely :
    "I don't presume about the answers to these questions but i think (from a deck building point of view) that the life or death of shop archetype in the long run is more directly related to them than to anything else."
    Imagine you live in a world where shop is restricted and you decide to build a deck from scratch (forget everything you may know). If your plan is to use some artifacts, somewhere in your decision process, you will consider workshop and the two questions i asked will arise (basically how much artifact heavy will be your deck).
    My point is not the anwers you will give to those questions at any given time since they may differ much. My point is the way these answers will evolve over a few years might be a crucial parameter. I am pointing at a relationship, a link (and again i am advocating nothing here one way or the other).
    (sorry if i might be not very clear but english is not my mothertongue).

    @Protoaddct
    Like i said in my previous post, i agree with you about what you said about mana and opening hands. Nowadays shop decks rely less on shop than they used to do. I don't know for the future. However, my point was not there and i tried to explain it more clearly just above.



  • @albarkhane said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    @hierarchnoble
    Thank you for the link but i know that deck and what it is worth in the current Legacy meta. There is obviously a competitive potential for that synergy in the Legacy format but only future will tell what it is really worth.

    You're right. But I believe the reason it's not that good in Legacy is because Eldrazi is WAY, WAY better and has more sol lands. If Shops is restricted (and we get Thorn and Chalice back), there's a high chance Eldrazi is just the better deck.



  • @fsecco
    True, it is difficult to compare one format from another one.

    I was only reacting to what i heard in the podcast (i hope i will be able to finish it tonight) and some posts but i would not want to spoil this thread with talks that might belong to another thread.

    I heard very interesting perspectives about Damping sphere and i am very curious about what the future will hold for this card.



  • @albarkhane I was dismissive of a lot of Dominaria cards too until I heard this podcast. Damping Sphere, Traxos, Familiar all seem good. Even Weatherlight - the insight Steve gives is really good and I had never thought of that for that card or that sort of card.



  • I hope those cards won't be too much good because the European Eternal weekend is very close and i have so far no idea what i should do with/against them. On the bright side, i presume most people are feeling the same now.



  • @nucleosynth said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    http://themanadrain.com/topic/1376/dack-fayden-is-he-a-main-deck-solution-anymore

    You are correct but the meta-game has shifted since then and I wanted to know why he is the best in the Vintage game now.



  • @protoaddct

    Even though I played shops like 10 years ago, this entire comment is true. Shops doesn't need a workshop. Two mana lands are not "just as good" but sometimes they can actually be better, like if you're trying to cast a non-artifact.

    Artifacts, particularly artifact creatures, have experienced a ridiculous power creep over the time I have not been playing.

    Mishra's Workshop is easily the most powerful card still not on the restricted list, with Mental Misstep a distant second.


 

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