SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review



  • @fsecco said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    @protoaddct But we shouldn't do it if we're talking B&R policy, since a card being similar with another in the B&R list means nothing.

    But it 100% does and always has. It does not mean that similar cards are snap restricted, but it is a contributing factor to be weighed. There are also a number of cards that are argably not restricted because of the presence of other cards on the restricted list.

    Every time a moxen comes out we absolutley hold it up against the other moxen. We then evaluate it based on them and its interactions with them. Not every mox enables the same strategy or can be used in thr same place. If opal were to ever get restricted you can be assured it will be because of its interaction with other moxen on the list and they would be cited as precident.

    Likewise LED and Petal were not exaclty the same as lotus, but it was certianly a basis for comparison. Treasure Cruise was not ancestral, but people called it ancestral 2-5. Sphere of resistance and Thorn are not the same, and different decks may actually want one and not the other. One is restricted, one is not. We were able to make that descision yet still compared the 2. Holding thoes 2 up against each other is perfectly fine, and holding them up against trinisphere and now D sphere is also just fine.



  • Workshop + mox or Lotus + mox in opening hand can't be more different :

    • workshop + mox is a almost 100% keep (unless mana full opening hand)
    • as for lotus + mox, there are 2 cases. If i have also a land, i will play it and so my amount of available mana won't be the same. If i have no land, that hand is a 100% mulligan.

    There is a huge difference between one time and reusable mana in shop decks (that's the reason why city of traitor is just bad in shop decks). Basically, in shop decks, lotus is closer to some kind of a 'dark ritual' than anything else : its function is to give some reach (by casting higher cc card or more cards) once.



  • @protoaddct let's just disagree on this one then. Not only I don't believe any of those cards got restricted based on similarities with other cards (but actually got restricted based on results) but I also think cards that did get restricted based on that kind of similarity got out of the list because that's not what matters (Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox for example). Also, as a 3rd disagreement, I don't think Workshop is actually a reusable Lotus (for reasons other people and I already pointed in this topic) so even there I feel the comparison is wrong.



  • For what it's worth, I think comparisons are bad for a couple of reasons. One, the person making the comparison is often engaging in lazy reasoning as you can typically make the same argument without such a comparison. "Shops is like a repeatable Black Lotus and is broken" can easily be "Shops generates an absurd amount of tempo and acceleration, leading to lopsided game-play". Second, even when comparisons are valid and their scopes defined, you'll have people wasting time on unrelated aspects of the comparison. "Shops is like a repeatable Black Lotus in that it generates an absurd tempo advantage." "But I can construct a scenario in which they aren't equivalent..." "Good for you..." This thread is essentially a case study in why I dislike comparisons.

    That said, WotC has used comparisons in B&R announcements @fsecco :

    "Dig Through Time has reduced the diversity of the format, though in a somewhat different way than in Legacy. In Vintage, it has replaced many other card-drawers, creating a less diverse format. Dig Through Time is comparable to other restricted card-drawers, and now shares that honor. Dig Through Time is restricted."

    And City of Traitors sees play in Legacy where Workshop, Moxen, and Lotus are banned @albarkhane . The card is worth 280 dollars now - it's hardly a bad card. It generates tempo (not 'reach') in Sneak and Show decks, Blood Moon Decks, and Eldrazi decks, allowing those decks to dump their signature cards ahead of curve, which is basically what Lotus and Shops do. Now, City of Traitors is bad in Shops because better options exist. Tell me, would you keep 4 Wastelands, Foundry Inspector + Sphere + Steel Overseer? Repeatable mana or not, no way in hell. Would you keep 3 Wastelands, 1 Lotus, Inspector + Sphere + Overseer? In a heartbeat.

    Great...what were we arguing about? No really, I forgot. This thread has just gotten absurd and hard to follow.



  • @chubbyrain my post was only answering an obviously false statement (a few posts above) saying that the two opening hands were exactly the same. No more no less.

    As for city of traitor, i know what it is worth in Legacy, and nowhere did i write it was a bad card in vacuum. It was only an exemple for what it is worth.

    Your exemple illustrate exactly what i was pointing at : a keep or mulligan depends if your hand allow a safe mana/game development (i mean, will you be able to play some cards that turn and the next one). The 2nd hand is an obvious keep because of both lotus and inspector.

    That said, i agree with you that this thread and talk is leading nowhere.



  • There was no link to the subsequent post or quotation included. In any case, my point about this thread becoming impossible seems to be supported.

    @albarkhane said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    As for city of traitor, i know what it is worth in Legacy, and nowhere did i write it was a bad card in vacuum. It was only an exemple for what it is worth.

    Your exemple illustrate exactly what i was pointing at : a keep or mulligan depends if your hand allow a safe mana/game development (i mean, will you be able to play some cards that turn and the next one). The 2nd hand is an obvious keep because of both lotus and inspector.

    "Second, even when comparisons are valid and their scopes defined, you'll have people wasting time on unrelated aspects of the comparison."

    I wasn't really responding to you. I was baiting you into a response that supported my first paragraph. My comparison and scenario were only valid as it pertains to tempo. You hijacked it to "illustrate" your point and thus ignored my point. Thus no actual discussion occurred. No argument or counter-argument. We are on two separate tangents. And now you feel that I ignored what you said, adding fuel to an unproductive debate. Is it your fault for taking my bait? No, and I want to be clear there. I just see this as the invariable end of this type of dialogue.

    Edit: I'm not trying to embarrass anyone or be a jerk. I just mean this as a call to arms in an attempt to elevate the conversation on TMD.



  • @chubbyrain said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    That said, WotC has used comparisons in B&R announcements @fsecco :
    "Dig Through Time has reduced the diversity of the format, though in a somewhat different way than in Legacy. In Vintage, it has replaced many other card-drawers, creating a less diverse format. Dig Through Time is comparable to other restricted card-drawers, and now shares that honor. Dig Through Time is restricted."

    Hummm... that's not really a card comparison though, is it? It's just saying Dig it just as good as other card drawers. If they had said something like "Treasure Cruise is an Ancestral Recall and should be restricted" then we'd be there. Also, if they did that it doesn't mean they're right in their reasoning. DCI often gets their reasoning off, even when they make the right calls.



  • @ChubbyRain
    I post here not very often, first because english is not my mother tongue and it is not always easy to be crystal clear. But the main reason is that much too often people are reading half sentences, or understand what is written according to what they think and not to what is written, or just jump on one word usually not very important and very soon we are talking about anything but not what was the real point, play on words or whatever rhetoric tool so they don't need to answer embarrassing question or argument.
    I am targetting and judging no-one here and i am probably included too but it is very frustrating and making me post even less. Maybe my english is so bad that people don't understand me but i am tired to spend my time explaining again and again what i wrote and that people missread, especially when it is about small details of really not much interest.

    So to answer your post :

    • I have no idea if comparison is interesting or not and that's the only reason i was still following this talk. I had hoped i could learn something interesting that could help me to improve my play level. When i said in my last post that i agreed with you that this talk leads nowhere, i meant that in the i-don't-know-how-much posts that i read i did not see much and my bet for something interesting to come was very low.

    • I did not hijacked your exemple, i aknowledged it and went one step further in the analysis : one time mana has some interest in a shop deck of course but IMHO the real point is the next turn. My decision process for mulligan or keep takes that in account and if i want to be really on the safe side i usually consider one-time mana source as some kind of bonus rather than mana source. Of course, some times it is worth the risk to have your black lotus-ed inspector getting a FOW. Talking about one-time mana in shop deck is an interesting topic but i am not sure it really belongs to that thread so i did not elaborate much in my previous post.



  • @albarkhane Your English is excellent and your meaning is clear and easily understood. Please do not let your concern about being a non-native English speaker deter you from posting.

    @albarkhane said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

    But the main reason is that much too often people are reading half sentences, or understand what is written according to what they think and not to what is written, or just jump on one word usually not very important and very soon we are talking about anything but not what was the real point, play on words or whatever rhetoric tool so they don't need to answer embarrassing question or argument.

    Well said. I think this is a common problem with this forum.

    • I have no idea if comparison is interesting or not and that's the only reason i was still following this talk. I had hoped i could learn something interesting that could help me to improve my play level. When i said in my last post that i agreed with you that this talk leads nowhere, i meant that in the i-don't-know-how-much posts that i read i did not see much and my bet for something interesting to come was very low.

    I agree, but I think that is because we have moved past the point of discussing theory and fundamentals into the B&R level of subjectivity.

    • I did not hijacked your exemple, i aknowledged it and went one step further in the analysis : one time mana has some interest in a shop deck of course but IMHO the real point is the next turn. My decision process for mulligan or keep takes that in account and if i want to be really on the safe side i usually consider one-time mana source as some kind of bonus rather than mana source. Of course, some times it is worth the risk to have your black lotus-ed inspector getting a FOW. Talking about one-time mana in shop deck is an interesting topic but i am not sure it really belongs to that thread so i did not elaborate much in my previous post.

    It is an interesting topic. I think current Shops decks are much more tempo-oriented. That is, they are dependent on quickly dumping their hands rather than breaking the symmetry of Sphere effects in a prolonged game. Therefore, it makes sense to talk about Shops in terms of tempo and look at both Workshops and Black Lotus as sources of tempo. But this point has been obfuscated by knee-jerk reactions on both sides.



  • Y'all mentioned in passing at the start of the podcast the possibility of the Vintage community maintaining its own B&R list, separate from WotC's own list. Is there any historical precedent for this? Have any major past Vintage tournaments experimented with a custom restricted list?


 

WAF/WHF

Looks like your connection to The Mana Drain was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.