Game Layout rules



  • @brass-man said in Game Layout rules:

    Am I the only person in the world who plays dredge without fanning their graveyard?

    We have a local who doesn't fan out their graveyard. I hate it because I'm constantly asking to look at their yard. I think that's this person's reasoning though - some people won't constantly ask so you can "get" people with a card they didn't know was in your pile.



  • @matori said in Game Layout rules:

    @thecravenone said in Game Layout rules:

    It's fun to picture how this rule applies to dredg

    This can be good example :
    alt text

    I see two bad things in this pic: one is that the exile zone should be next to the library, as pointed out by @thecravenone. The other (more speculative) is that having all that bunch of lands close to each other in the graveyard tells me that the gy order has probably been messed with, which is also illegal in Eternal formats.



  • @fsecco FWIW, this appears to be modern, and GY order does not matter in that format.



  • @jonhammack Sure. Thought it was Legacy, but didn't see the shocklands :P



  • Picture is screen shoot from Round 14 Grand Prix Phoenix feature match.
    It's a modern.
    Zones are outlined to show that Dredge player can keep clean battlefield even with fanned graveyard. I am not sure about Exile zone legality, but since this is from GP feature match I guess judges were ok with it.



  • @matori I don't know if this is Dominaria update or if it was already like this before, but now it's on the rules that gy and exile must be adjacent to the library.



  • Per the official notes:

    "Players in exceptional situations (e.g. a player playing a deck with no lands or a deck that makes significant use of the graveyard) should consult with tournament officials to determine what allowance, if any, will be made."



  • The ideal layout for Dredge is nothing in play and everything in exile. ;-)



  • @brianpk80 AFK sprinkling jacks under your tires.



  • @oestrus I feel so much love between the two of you. :)



  • @fsecco, the graveyard order and game layout are treated similarly. While you are correct that MTR section 3.14 says that graveyards using cards prior to Urza's Saga can't be reordered, most decks in Legacy and Vintage don't play cards that are affected by graveyard order, so judges won't strictly enforce it. If a player is playing cards that are affected by graveyard order, they must keep their graveyard in the proper order.

    The same thing goes with board layout. As long as it's clear to all players, anyone playing a deck that relies heavily on the graveyard or exile may expand those zones.

    If the setup of the game causes some confusion, the judge may issue a warning for Communication Policy Violation and could back the game up to the point of the decision that was made based on the incorrect information per IPG 3.7.



  • @dataspot That was true before Dominaria, but now you are obligated to put lands closer to you and gy and exile adjacent to the library (in competitive and professional REL). Except in cases like @Oestrus pointed out, of course.
    You can look here https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_mtr_27apr18_en.pdf in section 4.6 Game Layout.

    About the graveyard order, the rules says:
    3.14 Graveyard Order
    In formats involving only cards from Urza’s Saga™ and later, players may change the order of their graveyard at
    any time. A player may not change the order of an opponent’s graveyard.

    So I believe in Eternal formats you cannot change the order of the gy even if you don't play cards like Shallow Grave. I could be wrong though, but that's what I understand of the rules.



  • Good to know it's actually a rule. Mind you I've always played that way since I started playing ages ago.

    What people really find strange is that I play all my cards facing my opponent and always have. I just figure I already know what everything in my deck does, so it just makes it easier for my opponent to read the cards. Anybody else do this?

    edit: interesting. As per 4.6 this is illegal. "Each untapped permanent should face its controller." I've never been called on it. Perhaps because it says "should" instead of "must"?



  • @dstinct said in Game Layout rules:

    What people really find strange is that I play all my cards facing my opponent and always have. I just figure I already know what everything in my deck does, so it just makes it easier for my opponent to read the cards. Anybody else do this?
    edit: interesting. As per 4.6 this is illegal. "Each untapped permanent should face its controller." I've never been called on it. Perhaps because it says "should" instead of "must"?

    And how do you mark creatures with summoning sickness? I have always played them facing my opponent as a courtesy and reminder which creatures just came into play.



  • turning things 180 is also the normal way that elves players represent having used the 1/turn abilities on quirion ranger and wirewood symbiote, so prohibiting it would be bad.



  • @blindtherapy

    pros just use the ability more than once.



  • @dstinct said in Game Layout rules:

    What people really find strange is that I play all my cards facing my opponent and always have. I just figure I already know what everything in my deck does, so it just makes it easier for my opponent to read the cards. Anybody else do this?

    edit: interesting. As per 4.6 this is illegal. "Each untapped permanent should face its controller." I've never been called on it. Perhaps because it says "should" instead of "must"?

    Right before they made this rule, people complained about Adrian Sullivan doing it on a Pro Tour feature match. As a bonus, he made a major misplay due to not knowing how one of his cards worked. Maybe if they'd been facing him, he could've read them 🤔🤔🤔



  • A clarification on enforcement from Toby Elliot:
    "If everything is clear and both players are acting on mutually-understood information (both active and passive), then we’re not going to worry if there’s technically a violation."

    Generally speaking, if you and your opponent don't have an issue with it, a judge isn't going to swoop in and make you fix it,



  • @solemn_storm said in Game Layout rules:

    A clarification on enforcement from Toby Elliot:
    "If everything is clear and both players are acting on mutually-understood information (both active and passive), then we’re not going to worry if there’s technically a violation."

    Generally speaking, if you and your opponent don't have an issue with it, a judge isn't going to swoop in and make you fix it,

    In other words, it's prohibited to drive on red, but if there are no cars and pedestrians that's ok. It's quite silly to introduce the rule only to tell players to ignore it, but keep the right to punish players for subjective lack of "mutually-understood information."



  • @chronatog This is more of a "some speeding is okay if you're matching the flow of traffic". Flexibility in enforcement isn't necessarily a flaw, especially in something so subjective as game state communication in a game where decks can have very different sets of relevant information. Having a default just reduces the burden on the judges when resolving these situations.


 

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