@fsecco wow. it wasn't until your post that I realized the "Partner With X" mechanic is entirely different from the "Partner" mechanic, which they almost went out of their way to make more confusing by only putting it on legends and cards with "can be your commander" ... that seems ... unnecessarily misleading

anyway,

What I mean is, I could see this being a SB card against Shops in a Arena Rector deck. You tutor this with Rector and avoid all Sphere effects to combo out

This feels off to me. The -2 on this card is nice, but if you're tutoring out any planeswalker, it's nowhere near as nice as the abilities on something huge like Karn, Ugin, Garruk, or really any of the Nicol Bolases.

@brass-man am i mistaken or does "partner with" also include partner, in the sense that one can play the pair as your generals?

@blindtherapy you're not mistaken, it just also has an important and completely unrelated effect (I had to verify a third time after reading your post!)

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/battlebond-mechanics-2018-05-21

Apparently partner with means both

  • you can use both as commanders for the same deck (sometimes. if and only if the card could already be a commander)
  • when one of them enters the battlefield, you can tutor for the other one.

I don't believe this retroactively changes the rules on the old partner cards.

I never thought I'd live to see the day that they'd print a mechanic less intuitively named than bands with other 🙂

last edited by Brass Man

@protoaddct So you envision him in a...Storm deck? A Paradoxical deck? Unclear what other decks would be running Tendrils and Yawgmoth's Will.

This is pretty low level analysis. You are essentially reiterating what the card says and pointing out random interactions, but failing to transition that into a functional plan for a viable Vintage deck.

Maybe I'm being unfair. Maybe I'm just weird in that my process for card evaluation focuses more on context, i.e. "what decks can I make with this?" or "what metagames would I want this effect in?" Then again, I have a pretty high success rate with the new cards that pique my interest, so I don't know. It just seems like very little thought goes into these discussions.

Edit:
@BlindTherapy - Yes. They can partner with the other card to be your commander. They cannot partner with other cards with partner though. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/battlebond-mechanics-2018-05-21

last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain said in [BBD] The Kenrith Walkers:

@protoaddct So you envision him in a...Storm deck? A Paradoxical deck? Unclear what other decks would be running Tendrils and Yawgmoth's Will.
This is pretty low level analysis. You are essentially reiterating what the card says and pointing out random interactions, but failing to transition that into a functional plan for a viable Vintage deck.
Maybe I'm being unfair. Maybe I'm just weird in that my process for card evaluation focuses more on context, i.e. "what decks can I make with this?" or "what metagames would I want this effect in?" Then again, I have a pretty high success rate with the new cards that pique my interest, so I don't know. It just seems like very little thought goes into these discussions.

If you only look for cards that fit into existing archetypes your going to miss new archetypes all together. Perhaps the card proves to be good enough that running a singleton Tendrils and Yawgs makes sense? Maybe the deck is just toolbox.dec, similar to doomsday in its nature of running singletons and various paths to victory?

And yea, it's low level analysis. There are plenty of shells the cards could be slid into, clearly, where they can just function as finisher/synergy cards. Pick any red/blue deck that plays on the stack and is looking for a leg up in the mirror. When trying to evaluate these cards I find that we all fall into traps of just discounting them over cards like Jace and the like while failing to account for the uniqueness of those cards. This seems to be what happened with Teferi.

I would not be surprised if these cards fell flat. Honestly 99% of every card that gets printed fails the "how does this do against shops test" anyway. But it is interesting enough and novel enough that it merits discussion I think. These are certainly the strange and powerful cards that I would like to see play in the format.

@brass-man said in [BBD] The Kenrith Walkers:

@fsecco wow. it wasn't until your post that I realized the "Partner With X" mechanic is entirely different from the "Partner" mechanic, which they almost went out of their way to make more confusing by only putting it on legends and cards with "can be your commander" ... that seems ... unnecessarily misleading

anyway,

What I mean is, I could see this being a SB card against Shops in a Arena Rector deck. You tutor this with Rector and avoid all Sphere effects to combo out

This feels off to me. The -2 on this card is nice, but if you're tutoring out any planeswalker, it's nowhere near as nice as the abilities on something huge like Karn, Ugin, Garruk, or really any of the Nicol Bolases.

I don't know. Your opponent has a board full of creatures, and this is the turn you have to do something. EOT you tutor this guy out (Flash-Rector), on your turn you draw 2 and negate all his sphere effects and combo out. Neither of those PWs do anything in that scenario. And actually, in a Foundry Inspector + Ravager/Overseer turn 1 play, which of those PWs do you want to have T1? Will negates their creatures and builds your storm turn. I'm not saying he's good enough, but a SB card in a Storm-Rector deck, which is pretty narrow.

Also, why do you guys like Garruk so much? I think he's way, waaaaay worse than Ugin/Karn/Bolas.

last edited by fsecco

@fsecco Weirdly enough, I think modern Workshops' aggro focus probably makes the ability pretty lackluster for stabilization once you get to six. Specifically: it's worth noting that the +1/+1 counters from Ballistae, Walkers, Ravagers, and Overseers stick around.

For a significant chunk of the creature package, this ability reads: Up to two target creatures get +0/+3 and lose all activated abilities. Not nothing, but might actually be more interesting in the more-controlling, unrestricted Lodestone meta.

@chubbyrain To be fair - you won a MTGO event with the card - I would say that's more due to your skill, and less the power of the card. I'd be thrilled if my opponet tapped 5 to play Teferi instead of winning.

@thelastgnu That's why I said I could see it as a SB in a Arena Rector deck, where it would not cost 6 mana, but either 3W or 1U.

@fsecco said in [BBD] The Kenrith Walkers:

Also, why do you guys like Garruk so much? I think he's way, waaaaay worse than Ugin/Karn/Bolas.

I also think he's way way worse than Ugin/Karn/Bolas ... I just meant that I thought he was better than Will Kenrith 🙂

last edited by Brass Man

These are six mana walkers that do not end the game and whose most powerful effect is going to tutor up another terrible six mana walker. Why...?

@topical_island said in [BBD] The Kenrith Walkers:

I agree. It's like we got tired of marketing to 14 year olds so we started marketing to 7 year olds instead. A few more like this and I'll find myself running agro teletubbies with a purple splash to hardcast Barney the dinosaur.

See now the internet is way ahead of you

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last edited by MaximumCDawg

@pugsuperstar we've come a long way from Juzam Djinn

@brass-man said in [BBD] The Kenrith Walkers:

@fsecco said in [BBD] The Kenrith Walkers:

Also, why do you guys like Garruk so much? I think he's way, waaaaay worse than Ugin/Karn/Bolas.

I also think he's way way worse than Ugin/Karn/Bolas ... I just meant that I thought he was better than Will Kenrith 🙂

I'll insist in this exercise though. You're playing against shops and you're dead next turn because your opponent has a bunch of creatures attacking and 1-2 Spheres in play. You can resolve a Flash + Arena Rector from your hand though, eot. Which PW do you want to get, from all the available ones?
Maybe Chandra, Flamecaller if his creatures are all */4? Will gives you 2 cards and gets you around Spheres, so maybe that's his place? He's pretty bad against shops if you actually have to cast him though, for sure.

@fsecco In roughly alphabetical order:

Dack Fayden or Nicol Bolas steals one of their creatures to block with. Depending on the board state (particularly if Wurmcoil is involved) that might be enough.

Elspeth Tirel or Sun's Champion makes 3 blockers.

Gideon Jura makes all the creatures attack him instead.

Gideon of the Trials makes you un-killable.

@maximumcdawg Dack Fayden and Bolas are not enough against a horde (and who's bringing Wurmcoil against a Dack Fayden deck?). Also, would you really play Bolas 1.0 over 2.0?

The Elspeths seem good, but maybe 3 blockers that are easily killed by Ballista are not that great. The real great scenario here is Sun's Champion -3, killing mostly/all of his big creatures.

Gideon Jura gives you another turn, that I agree. But he may not be enough to actually win you the game there.

Gideon of the Trials does not make you un-killable. He just gotta attack Gideon with one of those creatures.

Look, I'm not even saying Will is good or even playable, but trying to come up with scenarios where what he can do no other PW can. I really think he gives you good windows to win against Shops. Would you actually play any of the Elspeths or Gideon Jura over Will in such a deck?

last edited by fsecco

@chubbyrain There's a very clear-cut, infallible way planeswalkers are evaluated in vintage. Is the card name "Jace, the Mind Sculptor"? If so, it is playable. If not, it is dime-bin chaff. That's the stick we always use to measure and it shant ever change.

@thewhitedragon69 said in [BBD] The Kenrith Walkers:

@chubbyrain There's a very clear-cut, infallible way planeswalkers are evaluated in vintage. Is the card name "Jace, the Mind Sculptor"? If so, it is playable. If not, it is dime-bin chaff. That's the stick we always use to measure and it shant ever change.

This is dumb and dismissive and contributes nothing to this conversation. There are PLENTY of walkers that are not JTMS that see competitive, top level play, including the new Karn, Flip Jace, Liliana, Chandra Torch, Teferi, Dak Fayden, the list goes on.

@topical_island @Protoaddct You guys are funny. I can't believe you didn't catch the sarcasm there. The "JtMS measuring stick" is way overused and is as faulty as the "can it die to bolt/does it pitch to FoW" criterion for evaluating card play-ability. So many people dismiss things on narrow and inappropriate criteria. I thought for sure - especially with that last sentence - everyone would see the facetiousness of that post.

Rowan Kenrith seems really bad, so I think it’s fair to just evaluate Will on its own.

6 is a tough spot in many existing curves. What’s the last good card at that spot in the curve - Dromoka maybe?

The function of which was:

  • Catch you up against aggro
  • Set up your next turn against control decks
  • Win in a few turns
  • Be Oathable (effectively justifying its spot in the deck if you don’t hit 6)

I think this has similarities in its functionality to Dromoka, but I don’t think it catches you up that effectively against most current aggro. Pyromancer laughs at this. Ravager with Factory laughs at this. Marit Lage is neutralized though.

I love the +2 ability but the mana cost of Will effectively makes that -2 cost modifier irrelevant against Shops. But I think it plays really well with Force unconditionally and the other free counters conditionally. One of my big frustrations with Jace TMS and Dack is that they aren’t that effective at drawing into Force of Will in a way that still leaves you ahead. This PW seems insane for doing that. Not to mention the other counters - imagine being able to hardcast Mindbreak Trap to protect Yawgmoth’s Will and still have three mana left over to cast goodies from your graveyard?

One thing to note: this plays suboptimally with off color Moxen and Mana Crypt / Vault. They help to cast it, but then they are useless for casting your Demoinc Tutors and Tinkers and such.

I’m not sure where I’d play this. But it does solve a specific problem with Force of Will and the Jayemdae Tome functions of playable planeswalkers.

Edit: I just re-read the -2. You can cast Mindbreak Trap for UU on your opponent’s turn. That seems insane. I still don’t know how much of a difference maker it is at 6 though.

last edited by ribby
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