Survival Salad



  • My favorite thing about this deck is there are approximately 3 fairly distinct versions that are all reasonable->very good. There’s about 45-50 cards (including lands and moxen, a few mana dorks, recall, and wonder) that all the versions play but you can diverge pretty wildly on the last parts of the plan and still be successful! Gives the core of the deck a lot of flexibility and staying power moving forward!



  • This is what I'm running this weekend at RTS Championships

    0_1543459384113_70d28728-3804-424e-a957-d0105bc1cec0-image.png ![alt text](image url)



  • @yayjinaz
    I’ve never understood the third Savannah in that build. Totally unnecessary imo. You don’t even want to cast white cards against Shops after the first Stoney Silence. I’d be inclined to include either Bayou (and play some DRS), another Trop, or a Cradle.



  • @wfain

    Had to submit the list a few days ago but just revealed yesterday. I agree now that DRS is simply an all-star in survival. If I could take back my submission I'd swap to DRS over NH and add in a Bayou over the Savannah. But this is similar to my 6-0-1 list from a few weeks ago and I was comfortable with it. Just a few silver bullet changes with Gilded Drake and Phantasmal Image.



  • @yayjinaz
    yeah, I think the list is good in general. Just never understood the third Savannah. Good luck!



  • If anyone's got POS, Moon Stompy, Turbo Xerox, Snapcaster Control, or White Eldrazi built on MTGO and is interested in helping a brother out I'd love to jam some games tonight and tomorrow night to prep for the tourney I'm playing. Here's the other decklists: http://lonestarlhurgoyfs.com/2018-11-29-Romancing-The-Stones-Invitational-Dec-1/



  • Been thinking about this, and just sleeved up a version. Have some thoughts i want to ask about, but let me know if it's already been covered before. Just bear with me as i have not played any form of this deck against anyone yet.

    Vengeful Pharaoh?

    @aeonsovarius said in Survival Salad:

    Is Vengeful Pharaoh interesting?

    It's a reasonable effect that sits in the graveyard to remove something off their board, plus it can also (sort of) put a creature card in your hand when you run out by being back on top for drawing.

    It's not explosive or obviously powerful but i sort of feel like pitching during your opponent's combat could be a thing at some point, though i realize we are not really on the plan of activating Bazaar and Survival on their turn.

    Mana Crypt? Unless i'm mistaken, it appears to me no one is playing this. It doesn't really cast the colored creatures like Leovold but it really amps you into casting Hollow One and Vengevine if need be, but is also just a bonus Mox for Turn 1 Survival.

    Does anyone like Mental Misstep or Flusterstorm in a non-Force version? Maybe a couple Misstep in the side to help against Cage?

    Mana Confluence: is it greedy? A lot of versions seem to be 3 color and have a splash in some way? It's not fetchable, but if you draw it, you don't have to fetch it.

    Dryad Arbor, i saw a little discussion but not a lot. Seems a great way to feed DRS in a pinch, another body pitch to survival, can be fetched, etc. Seems medium but seems to have very strong utility.

    Demonic Tutor in black versions? Are we just so redundant we don't want to wait around to spend 2 mana? I mean (of course you know what DT does) it's just another Bazaar or Survival or any body or Time Walk.

    In the line of tutors, could Entomb ever be useful? Entomb gets the Squee or the Vengevine when you don't have a Survival or creature in hand, Grudge if need be.

    Anyway, thanks for reading even if you don't particularly have any thoughts.



  • @aeonsovarius
    Vengeful Pharoah: not a relevant ability for Vinage games.

    Mental Misstep: I’ve been playing 3 in a non-FoW, non-Thalia version and been pleased with it.

    Dryad Arbor: is fine, not great. The Survival interaction is neat but hardly something you’ll do. Works well if you want to play Cradle though.

    Mana Confluence: you could build the mana base off these if you wanted, but you’d have to eschew DRS.



  • @aeonsovarius One issue with Mana Confluence is that it doesn't activate Wonder when you need it. So you still need at least one Tropical Island in the deck and you also might need to fetch it proactively, which is inconvenient if you're on the kind of five-color list that would benefit from a rainbow land.

    I think Demonic Tutor is probably too expensive to be a fifth Survival/Bazaar. Entomb might be interesting though, in a black-heavy version.



  • I'm feeling that there are too many combos lately. I've managed to get a 4th place in the last challenge without facing too many combos with the dark survival list. I liked a lot the dark survival list (wfain's with some little changes), but it's got very different outcomes compared to the BUG one.

    Dark survival is better against xerox and shops (here it's WAY better, very favorable again), but worse against PO and combo decks in general (storm, those with the artifact that reduces in 1 the cost, oath, etc).

    That being said, I'm pretty sure those are the 2 best lists we have right now. Here is the last dark survival I've played:

    0_1543941925325_1be9ed78-39f9-4bee-8bf3-692ef7e17a74-image.png

    I've made some changes to be better suited to face combo, like:

    -1rav +1containment priest => still sides the same against dredge and survival, but got 1 more priest for oath

    -1assassin's trophy +1 chalice => I didn't bring the second trophy against many decks, and chalice is great for fighting combo decks in general (chalice@0)

    -1cratermaker +1ingot chewer => I liked cratermaker, but pay 2 more mana for it's flexibility was usually bad. Most hates that I thought were worth fighting were artifact hate, and with chewer I can acess more disruption against fast decks. It's effect against dredge and shops was the same, and as the latest builds are better suited to win games with hate in play, I didn't think the extra possibility of killing priest/jailer/mentor(luckily)/pyro was too relevant.

    Well, this post was mostly to say that given the current meta, I'll go back to the BUG version, but that this one is awesome for the right meta. I think those are the best 2 versions of the deck, and that what defines which one will be used is the meta.

    PS.: The only thing that really hurted the deck was the manabase constraints. Playing leovold and pyroblast was really hard most of the times without active shaman in play. But still, leovold is just that good to be left aside.



  • Bloodghast? Tried looking through the thread and didn't see this either. Extra neat body to pitch to bazaar and survival, it can have haste all by itself, gives more of an aggro edge to the all-out fighting package.

    @wfain said in Survival Salad:

    Vengeful Pharoah: not a relevant ability for Vinage games.
    Mental Misstep: I’ve been playing 3 in a non-FoW, non-Thalia version and been pleased with it.
    Dryad Arbor: is fine, not great. The Survival interaction is neat but hardly something you’ll do. Works well if you want to play Cradle though.
    Mana Confluence: you could build the mana base off these if you wanted, but you’d have to eschew DRS.

    Pharaoh; isn't it nice to have another removal, although it is passive (which is just not ideal), it is repeatable and if you want to use it to guarantee a creature draw you can? After bringing out your VV team if you've discarded your hand to bazaar or survival, you draw this and start a survival chain again to bring back the VV team. I specifically only envision this being valuable against another creature matchup: Shops, Survival Mirror, possibly Dredge. Maybe Oath for all i know, but as an Oath player i just feel like i might sit back and block until i have a better state. I know spot removal is generally not considered vintage viable but it does give you some grind factor and utility.

    Mental Misstep: Would you ever play both Misstep and Thalia? They seem like a nonbo but they do different things. Not saying it's better or good at all but just wondering.

    Dryad Arbor: the interaction is hardly something you'll ever do? I keep finding situations where i wish i could pitch that to survival, which gives DRS another mana source. Just a general use, but you could also have 1 mana left and 2 creatures in hand, pitch the Dryad and then have a new mana with DRS to activate survival for the other creature. Unfortunately it doesn't count towards Vengevine trigger.
    What don't you like about it? I see it was in your original list? Just slow? I may be doing something wrong with my inexperience but every few games i say to myself "hmm, damn, a Dryad Arbor would be interesting here".

    @craw_advantage said in Survival Salad:

    @aeonsovarius One issue with Mana Confluence is that it doesn't activate Wonder when you need it. So you still need at least one Tropical Island in the deck and you also might need to fetch it proactively, which is inconvenient if you're on the kind of five-color list that would benefit from a rainbow land.

    I think Demonic Tutor is probably too expensive to be a fifth Survival/Bazaar. Entomb might be interesting though, in a black-heavy version.

    Yeah, you are both right. DRS needs fetches and Wonder needs islands. I will try out confluence, i feel pretty certain it could be useful as a 2-of. We certainly can pay a couple life.
    Notably though, i don't think Confluence is useless outside of anything less than 5 colors. All our fetch targets are green (and for good reason, no argument there) which means we can't play a Tundra or Underground Sea for easier color management. Confluence cast both sides of Grudge, any part of Leovold, casts Stony Silence or activates Survival.
    2 Confluence though may mean we play more lands and that might be the biggest, or tied with other reasons, why we can't use it. There's little room to skim on other lands.

    Entomb i think needs a specific effective gimmick to be worthwhile, but certainly sounds interesting. I mean we get Wonder when we don't have Survival (or naturally draw our 1-of AND bazaar), it gets half on Ancient Grudge, it gets Squee, it gets a land for DRS, and most notably it puts a Vengevine in the yard. It's kind of worse/different Survival i think, but does get to hit other things.

    Demonic just crosses my mind as a generic but super powered card. You don't even have to get Bazaar or Survival with it to be good, you might also specifically want Chalice or a different non-creature. DT for Lotus is also a very strong play in this deck i think (and many decks anyway, but you know).

    I'm going to try out Mana Crypt for sure, we shall see. Bloodghast might be a different build entirely but i want to try that as well. Maybe it wont' be good, maybe the deck for it should actually just even more aggro with less hate cards but seems sketch.



  • @gutocmtt could you make a sideboard guide for the bug list?



  • @swiftwarkite2 To be honest I really don't feel comfortable. I've been getting good results, but I still think I probably make some suboptimal sideboarding decisions, even more as I change the version I'm playing all the time. I kinda just go with my gut, see what cards are good against certain matchups, if they are fast enough and how far I can go on cutting my combo cards to avoid losing to myself.

    I'm thinking about give a shot at streaming this deck though, and then I'd walk through my thinking process of it. I'll probably start tomorrow or friday, but I'll give a heads up here before.



  • @gutocmtt Hi, long time lurker, first time chatter.

    Please, please, please stream vintage.

    Anything I can do to help you with that, let me know.

    Also, hope this is you: https://www.twitch.tv/gutocmtt



  • Hey @ChubbyRain thanks a lot for the entusiasm 🙂

    Yeah, that's me ^^

    It was kind of a last minute decision, but I've been postponing this decision for a while and I don't have all set up, but I'll just do it. I mean, if we wait for everything to be perfect, we never do it. I'll set things up along the way, and I'd love to have some help seting things up ^^

    The only issue is I think most people will not like the time of the stream, as I live in Brazil and the best option for me in terms of personal organization is 3P.M. (which is 9a.m. pacific time, which I think is what people are used to use). If I continue streaming (which I intend to), it would probably be closer to 8pm here (2pm pacific).



  • @gutocmtt what is your optimal list for bug survival?



  • @swiftwarkite2 It's still the one I got 6-0 in the challenge, I was trying the dark survival and got back to it on tuesday. Maybe I'll make some little changes soon, but so far it's IMO the best we got.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1460313#online



  • @gutocmtt that's almost exactly where I've ended up as well, although the SB trygon turned into a nature's claim to have more cheap interaction against shops instead of 3 cmc. Fluster, trap, deep analysis are the most "flex" slots to adjust for an expected meta, and the only difference there is I fit treasure cruise in instead of trap.



  • @aeonsovarius
    Pharaoh: what are you trying to remove? Most decks don’t attack with creatures that matter, and the things you’d really like to get are often indestructible or draw around 14 cards. I guess it could be interesting against Oath unless they land Niv Mizzet?

    Arbor: yeah, I played it for a couple weeks this summer and the number of times it was helpful to me were few, where the number of times it was actively bad were many.

    Bloodghast: it hasn’t played because it doesn’t actually synergize with Vengevine and you have to discard it to ever get it back. That’s a lot of work for a 2/1.



  • @gutocmtt Nice to know about other Brazilian Vintage players like me ! I`ll try to watch your stream wheneaver possible ! 🙂



WAF/WHF