How are you mulligan with this deck? Mulligan until you get a Bazaar in your hand and Rootwalla/Hollow One/Vengevine? Any strategy on when to keep your hand?
I've kept a fair number of straight up beatdown hands. A double exalted pumped Rootwalla can easily go the distance.
IDK if I posted it yet, but I got someone out a while ago with double spirit guide to pump my Rootwalla that was blocked by their one threat.
@quo I mulligan fairly aggressively from 7 and 6. Usually stop at 5 if I can cast something (unless I know the matchup of course).
I’m looking for hands that can either use Bazaar well (Squee and some playable card is usually strong enough to keep), can Survival them by turn 3, or have an aggressive Thalia plan.
The only decks you have to really go for it early are Dredge, Outcome, and Storm. Shops you should go for Hollow One if you have it, even if you can’t bring back the VV, because you never know when they’ll have WL or Trinisphere to shut it off.
Anything fair- take your time to set up. They have a hard time unless Mentor comes down and they still have a full hand.
I've been impressed by this deck and by how slow blue decks (except for outcome and storm) are. It's pretty different being on this side of the table, and now I get why it was so hard to beat this deck when I was on URw mentor.
I'm usually on the mulligan until survival or bazaar. It's pretty hard to have a decent speed without them. Unless you know who you are playing against (g2/g3), then you can mulligan to some hate or insane explosiveness against outcome (thalia + chalice for 0 on turn 1 just won me a 6 turn game with no other disruption, sometimes it's enough), some roadblocks and/or castable survival against shops, and against normal blue decks I guess the same as before (survival or bazaar)
I've tried kaluma's list with birds, and I liked it a lot. There are only some cards I will change, I'm just not sure for what. Manglehorn sounds nicer than ingot chewer against PO but the 3 mana requirement really hurts. And I feel like outcome is already a favorable matchup since there are so many angles we attack from and the 1-ofs are usually to be tutored by survival, which would make them cost 2 and 4, and that's a huge difference. I also didn't like spell queller, as we usually can or are close to win the game with survival and 4 mana left, it was very clunky at times and sometimes it just died to removal. I also missed noble's exalted trigger a few times, and as the deck that have wasteland and we should bring lots of grudges against is a good matchup (shops), I think noble would be better.
Overall it's a pretty cool and good deck, went 3-2 and 5-0 in my first 2 attempts with it and had tons of fun, I'm looking forward to play more of it!
I've liked a Lot the containment priests too. Against dredge It keeps them controller for a while And If they kill It, the Bridges Go away (they cant make something get in And sacrificed with the bridge destroy trigger on the Stack), so when they get "released" It won't be that explosive. With those cuts I got room for one priest, which already gave me a free Win against dredge And Oath.
Sideboarding seems a bit tricky, not wanting to cut too many of the Survival components. How is everyone boarding for Paradoxical, Shops, Dredge, and Jeskai Mentor? These seem to be the four most common decks in the recent online meta, making up 58 out of my last 86 matches.
Since there are several variations of Survival being run, for reference, I'm currently looking at Kaluma's list - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1242003#online
@wfain Nice, are you running It MD? It sounds cool against blue decks too, with their delves, snaps And yawg wills. I mean, not good like "tutor for It And play", more like a Very acceptable colateral effect for making dredge better. I've been considering a 4th Thalia too. It's been great against blue decks, And bad case scenario we just discard It to Bazaar or survival (bad, not worst since worst case is get 4 in hand without discard outlet And as I speak it already seems like a kinda bad idea, but I dont know..)
@ritter against Outcome I cut a Survival, because it is slower and you’re more interested in resolving Thalia/Thorn. Then I shave 1 each of VV, Hollow, and Rootwala, also cut basic Forest since they don’t play Wasteland.
Vs Jeskai I do very little if anything (just bring a couple ways to kill RiP/Leyline). Chalice comes out, as does at least 1 Hollow b/c of Dack.
Vs Dredge: Chalice, Thorn, Thalia all come out.
Vs Shops: a Rootwala and a Survival come out since they are slow and not as impactful. Thalia/Thorn as well (unless it is more like Stax, then keep those in on the play at the least)
I take Chalice out on the draw vs everything but Outcome.
like a lot of the ideas being tossed around here. just finished a 4-1 league with my only loss to @GutoCmtt in the mirror match
SB'ing for me has been something like:
shops: -thalias, thorn, chalice, queller, anger, 1 survival... +plows, claim, stony, flux
PO: -birds, forest, mandrills, anger, 1 squee?... +stony, mindbreak trap, claim, plows. GY hate can be okay if they show theyre on a yawgwill version; remorseful cleric is one of my GY sb slots now so that is an option.
Dredge: -birds, chalice, queller, mandrills, forest, thorn... +plows, claim, traps, priests/crypt/remoseful cleric etc.
Blue: -1 bird, 1 hollow one (against red), maybe chalice... +plows, claim, maybe remorseful cleric.
Finished 3 leagues so far, 3-2; 5-0; 4-1.
My losses were to dredge, RUG Oath, and PO. The dredge pilot got some crazy good draws, hitting just the right combination of cards to pull off a cabal pit for priest and immediately start going crazy with dredgers while still holding FoW backup for my rav trap. PO had turn 1 vault/key on the play game 1 and then assembled vault/key turn 3 through a thalia after forcing a stony silence and tinkering for key with vault in hand.
For my crazy win compilation, I beat a PO pilot with tinker/BS turn 2 and an Oath pilot that managed to pull a turn 3 grisel and turn 4 inferno titan.
Wonder was amazing against just about everything, flying over ravager shops and mentors. I am currently running 3 birds and 3 ESG, which felt good in general. 3 squees were fantastic, pulling me out of many stalemates and slow board positions. Lil' squee even got cast a few times after chump blocking to be my second creature in a turn to resurrect vengevines.
For reference, my current list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1260503#online
I think I'm going to try a straight bant list, cutting 2 grudges, 2 taigas, 3 birds, 1 ESG, 1 squee, and the 1 anger. Going up to 4 hierarch leaves me with potentially 2 land slots and then 4 additional spots to fill. Additionally, with a straight bant manabase is it worth running the ruby? Maybe the ruby gets cut and the third ESG stays in?
Ideally I'd like cards that hit PO, Jeskai Mentor, or possibly Ravager Shops (the loss of 2 grudge should be made up for in some way I guess?). Having a way to bounce a blightsteel might be nice, possibly adding back dryad militant could be sweet, or even a second wonder has crossed my mind. One card I'm definitely interested in trying in some number is phyrexian revoker, being able to tutor up an answer for vault/key or a planeswalker. It seems that spell queller, although common in these lists, has been hit or miss, so I'm still bouncing around some ideas.
I also feel like I'm missing some ESG interactions. Besides it being like a green lotus petal that dodges spheres, I've had situations where I was able to survival up an ESG as an additional green mana source to pitch another creature to survival to get up to 3 discards in a turn for hollow one, but otherwise I can't tell if I'm missing some sweet interaction.
@ritter i had some bant lists posted earlier in this thread that are probably still just as relevant. going into a 4th or 5th color is good against combo decks, as thalia alone is not really enough. I ended up on judge's familiar and spell queller, but meddling mage (interesting!), revoker, bigger thalia (probably too slow/low impact), spirit of the lab (awkward), teeg (seems decent, doesn't stop tinker/mentor/vault), canonist (doesn't slow us down that much if you end chains with hollow one?), etc could also fill those slots.
I don't think you need too many off color moxen, and in general would want 2 spirit guides minimum, and 3 would be best imo. Turning extra creatures into discards/mana is very good. the interactions you mentioned are the main ones, but you can also EOT turn creatures into spirit guides to gear up for a bigger next turn, or power out a hate card turn 1, or beat down for 2 against control decks.
if you want cards against shops, the big idiots are pretty good - goyf, mandrills. not too many of the hatebears overlap, unfortunately. kataki is a card, but sort of fragile in the age of ballista.
the Gruw lists i ended up on were because i wanted more game against PO, and grudge certainly does help, but the matchup is still hard. I'm not sure you can stay Bant and still have a great matchup against PO. It always seems like you just die to a force of will into anything. Grudge at least will try to keep them low on resources and going too broken with outcome (in theory anyways...).
if i were to test more, i might try a 3rd squee and maybe meddling mage over something like Anger, even in a red list.
Anyways, congrats on the finishes and please let us know how things keep evolving!!
I don’t find I have any real trouble with 4 or even 5 colors. Very few decks are running more than just Strip Mine online. The reason I don’t have much trouble is I try to keep what I want in a particular matchup down to 2 non-green colors. For example- against PO I want W and R, so I don’t worry about trying to set up Wonder or Ancestral. Against Shops I want R for sure, and then I just lean into U or W depending on whether I draw Flux or Stony.
I'm trying the DRS (I actually went 100% on DRS) and I'm finding it to be better than birds. I didn't get to try hierarch, but I don't think I've ever missed his trigger. For the first turns of the game it's very good at generating mana (having lands in the GY) and the collateral effect of his other activations is pretty relevant. I'm really liking it.