I am finding that in matches where I just get stonewalled by a token strategy (from Sai, Mentor, or Pyromancer), I cannot push though to get that final bit of damage before they rally back.

Thus, a card that I have been considering as of late is running Brawn in addition to Wonder in the main.

Has any had any experience running it in a list before?
What have been the results?

Here's my current list for discussion:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Hollow One
4 Vengevine
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Wonder
1 Brawn
1 Spell Queller
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Manglehorn
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Stony Silence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
2 Riftstone Portal

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Fairgrounds Warden
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Containment Priest
1 Wispmare
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
1 Energy Flux

@chikararyuu my question is where does Brawn help you that Wonder doesn’t? If it is worth a second evasion effect I imagine a second Wonder is better. I also believe the 3cmc cards should just not be in the 75 anymore.

@wfain Brawn helps when you are stonewalled via token strategies.

In the outcome lists that I have encountered as of late, some of are Sai who creates flying thopters.

Wonder’s evasion just gets stonewalled since vengevine and company cannot push through...thus the reason for Brawn.

As for 3cmc creatures (spell queller, manglehorn, fairground warden, etc.), I’m not sure where you are going with it? I find the toolbox selection of creatures really handy and have had very little problem casting them.

Are you able to elaborate?

@chikararyuu I think they just kinda suck. They’re too slow to matter most of the time. I find turning them into 1/2 drops makes the plan much more consistent. I recommend Ingot Chewer very highly, and have been impressed by Goblin Cratermaker in very limited run today. I am also fond of an Ancient Grudge in the main.

I suppose if Sai becomes standard it might be worth experimenting with Brawn, otherwise I wouldn’t worry too much about it and would instead focus on access to things that can actually kill the problem creature (StP, Decay, Assassins Trophy are all very good and viable options).

On the other hand... is Sai becomes popular I think more access to Pyroblast is what you actually want. The combination of Pyroblast and Stony Silence should make PO pretty favorable (to say nothing of Thorn/Thalia).


Testing this out this morning. It seems pretty good in theory. Just played against EldraziW. Goblin Cratermaker is really good in that match-up!

last edited by wfain

@wfain this list seems really solid. I played something similar in a league and went 2-3 but played the mirror three times and went 1-2 vs it. The biggest differences are I had three Birds vs the Hierarchy/Deathrite split and I had two Ancient Grudge main.

  • Is Hierarch better than two Birds here? Feels like you want both red and black occasionally.

  • I cut Mandrils and don’t know how I feel about it. How do you like that card?

I’m trying to figure out if I want to play Survival at champs and I really don’t know so far. One of the issues I’m having is that I haven’t gotten the chance to test the shops matchup and my guess is that Survival is not favored. At least in game 1.

Birds v. Noble: I think Noble is better. Most of the time you can fetch the Taiga and use the Noble for white. Bayou is rarely needed.

Mandrills: I sort of view it as Hollow One #5 except that it can’t be Dacked and it is a bit better against Trinisphere and Wastelands.

I don’t think Shops is heavily favored. If they are on the play and have a tax and a threat on 1 you’re in trouble. Otherwise you’ve got just as much explosive potential, except your guys are bigger and can occasionally fly. Stony Silence is quite good in game 1 where they try to win via Ballista and Ravager if they can’t tax you out early.

I don’t have the luxury of playing paper vintage, so I don’t know what to say about champs, but I’ve been playing this deck all summer and it is probably the most fun/rewarding deck to play over and over again. It can do busted things, but also rewards you for knowing what’s going on. It is also somewhat difficult to hate out since, unlike Dredge, you can still play a passable tax/beat down game plan

Just curious, with birds/nobles/Dr shaman/ESG all having been tested depending on your white to red to black ratios, has anyone given Orcish Lumberjack a try? Synergizes with Dr. Shaman, can give you that burst triple green to "go off" with Survival, or can let you do many other things as well, like Grudge with flashback (tap land for G, sac for RRR etc), or get the new colorless eating shock goblin and pop it in one turn. I'm sure there is more I'm missing. Thoughts?

@serracollector I have had 1 of them in builds occasionally, but it is kind of like Cradle. Either great or terrible.

At least you can Chuck it to Survival unlike Cradle, but fair enough.

I managed to 5-0 this weekend with a DRS heavy build 😄 my brother was borrowing some modern cards from my account, so tweaked my list to be 4.5 colors with heavy hate for PO. Maybe it's just the times I play, but shops seems to have been hated out of the meta a little. skimming on hard shops hate like energy flux for pyroblasts seems better in the current environment, especially with grudges main that matchup should still be fine.
played against pyromancer, oath, PO, PO, storm (i think, only really saw usea, badlands, and a chain of vapor game 2).
grudge felt good, pyroblast made me feel safer but i'm not really sure if i ever cast one. ingot chewer was solid for blowing things up or just a creature to cast for VV. feel like i won against some unfavorable matchups, in part by dodging the "FoW into kill you" type plays in the opening turns. resolving thalias and null rods feels good!


@kaluma Nice. I just beat Montolio to get 5-1 in the challenge (which is a top 8).

Finished in 2nd place. 2-1 vs Jeskai control, 2-1 vs PO, 2-0 vs UR Pyromancer, 1-0 vs Montolio.

List was pretty solid. I like Cratermaker and Ingot Chewer as a pair right now. It worked well overall. I'm thoroughly convinced not having access to red is totally wrong at this point.


last edited by wfain

so stupid idea time:
i really like the engine of bazaar, squee, grudge, etc. and i feel like leaning even harder on those synergies could good if you could more reliably see bazaar. What do yall think of playing a crop rotation, with maybe access to a utility land or two (possibly in the board - thinking karakas, cradle, bog, strip mine as options.)
obviously the downsides are misstep and deck slots, but you are already pretty good against misstep decks in general, and crop rot could add some consistency toward finding an engine card.

@kaluma sounds pretty nice. There are a Lot of hands that would be great with an engine, but you have to mulligan due to it's lack. With Bazaar, just pitch It, without it go fetch it. I think I will try that too!

@gutocmtt I think I would start with -spirit guide, -2/1 gy hate guy, +croprot, +squee. With an emphasis on bazaar, ray of revelation might be an attractive SB option.

@kaluma Why aren't you just playing Lands at that point?

@wfain what? There's a big difference between playing a "fifth bazaar" and playing lands, a completely different deck...

@kaluma I misunderstood, I thought you were looking at a bunch of Crop Rotation and some other utility lands plus extra Grudges and Squee.
1 Rotation might be ok. But it is pretty awkward since getting Bazaar actually sort of like getting Misstepped (you lose a Forest and don’t gain another mana producer). That’s fine, or even great, if you have a couple Hollow One in your hand but not so great if you want to be casting anything else since we’ve only got 14 non-Bazaar lands, and 7-8 of those are fetch lands. So I suspect that if you go down this route you’ll want to replace 2+ fetch lands with Riftstone Portals and then maybe another 1-2 with actual lands (maybe Mana Confluence?). I would then also consider the possibility of including Ramunap and Strip Mine too.

I started a league with the crop rotation, drew it twice. The first time it was awesome, I had only a survival as engine which got countered, then rotated for bazaar, discarding VV, playing a dork and hollow one getting back VV. It kinda saved that game (or at least let me explode in the beginning).

The second time it was awful. Got misstepped, and proceeded with only 1 green mana for several turns. Still won, but it was pretty bad.

Didn't put any kind of utility lands, as rotation is extra unreliable in vintage with misstep, fow and flusterstorm, drawing situational blank is also bad and it's only 1 card (not enough to justify playing around it). I think it should be played only as a bad 5th copy of bazaar and not to get fancy, if it's supposed to be played.

Got to 5-0 with that list, but crop rotation was never relevant anymore, and I sided it out against every deck with misstep. If misstep wasn't a thing in vintage I would certainly play it, but that's too much of a risk given it's pretty popular in the current meta. Anyway, seems like the deck is pretty good right now.

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