@aeonsovarius One issue with Mana Confluence is that it doesn't activate Wonder when you need it. So you still need at least one Tropical Island in the deck and you also might need to fetch it proactively, which is inconvenient if you're on the kind of five-color list that would benefit from a rainbow land.

I think Demonic Tutor is probably too expensive to be a fifth Survival/Bazaar. Entomb might be interesting though, in a black-heavy version.

last edited by craw_advantage

I'm feeling that there are too many combos lately. I've managed to get a 4th place in the last challenge without facing too many combos with the dark survival list. I liked a lot the dark survival list (wfain's with some little changes), but it's got very different outcomes compared to the BUG one.

Dark survival is better against xerox and shops (here it's WAY better, very favorable again), but worse against PO and combo decks in general (storm, those with the artifact that reduces in 1 the cost, oath, etc).

That being said, I'm pretty sure those are the 2 best lists we have right now. Here is the last dark survival I've played:


I've made some changes to be better suited to face combo, like:

-1rav +1containment priest => still sides the same against dredge and survival, but got 1 more priest for oath

-1assassin's trophy +1 chalice => I didn't bring the second trophy against many decks, and chalice is great for fighting combo decks in general (chalice@0)

-1cratermaker +1ingot chewer => I liked cratermaker, but pay 2 more mana for it's flexibility was usually bad. Most hates that I thought were worth fighting were artifact hate, and with chewer I can acess more disruption against fast decks. It's effect against dredge and shops was the same, and as the latest builds are better suited to win games with hate in play, I didn't think the extra possibility of killing priest/jailer/mentor(luckily)/pyro was too relevant.

Well, this post was mostly to say that given the current meta, I'll go back to the BUG version, but that this one is awesome for the right meta. I think those are the best 2 versions of the deck, and that what defines which one will be used is the meta.

PS.: The only thing that really hurted the deck was the manabase constraints. Playing leovold and pyroblast was really hard most of the times without active shaman in play. But still, leovold is just that good to be left aside.

Bloodghast? Tried looking through the thread and didn't see this either. Extra neat body to pitch to bazaar and survival, it can have haste all by itself, gives more of an aggro edge to the all-out fighting package.

@wfain said in Survival Salad:

Vengeful Pharoah: not a relevant ability for Vinage games.
Mental Misstep: I’ve been playing 3 in a non-FoW, non-Thalia version and been pleased with it.
Dryad Arbor: is fine, not great. The Survival interaction is neat but hardly something you’ll do. Works well if you want to play Cradle though.
Mana Confluence: you could build the mana base off these if you wanted, but you’d have to eschew DRS.

Pharaoh; isn't it nice to have another removal, although it is passive (which is just not ideal), it is repeatable and if you want to use it to guarantee a creature draw you can? After bringing out your VV team if you've discarded your hand to bazaar or survival, you draw this and start a survival chain again to bring back the VV team. I specifically only envision this being valuable against another creature matchup: Shops, Survival Mirror, possibly Dredge. Maybe Oath for all i know, but as an Oath player i just feel like i might sit back and block until i have a better state. I know spot removal is generally not considered vintage viable but it does give you some grind factor and utility.

Mental Misstep: Would you ever play both Misstep and Thalia? They seem like a nonbo but they do different things. Not saying it's better or good at all but just wondering.

Dryad Arbor: the interaction is hardly something you'll ever do? I keep finding situations where i wish i could pitch that to survival, which gives DRS another mana source. Just a general use, but you could also have 1 mana left and 2 creatures in hand, pitch the Dryad and then have a new mana with DRS to activate survival for the other creature. Unfortunately it doesn't count towards Vengevine trigger.
What don't you like about it? I see it was in your original list? Just slow? I may be doing something wrong with my inexperience but every few games i say to myself "hmm, damn, a Dryad Arbor would be interesting here".

@craw_advantage said in Survival Salad:

@aeonsovarius One issue with Mana Confluence is that it doesn't activate Wonder when you need it. So you still need at least one Tropical Island in the deck and you also might need to fetch it proactively, which is inconvenient if you're on the kind of five-color list that would benefit from a rainbow land.

I think Demonic Tutor is probably too expensive to be a fifth Survival/Bazaar. Entomb might be interesting though, in a black-heavy version.

Yeah, you are both right. DRS needs fetches and Wonder needs islands. I will try out confluence, i feel pretty certain it could be useful as a 2-of. We certainly can pay a couple life.
Notably though, i don't think Confluence is useless outside of anything less than 5 colors. All our fetch targets are green (and for good reason, no argument there) which means we can't play a Tundra or Underground Sea for easier color management. Confluence cast both sides of Grudge, any part of Leovold, casts Stony Silence or activates Survival.
2 Confluence though may mean we play more lands and that might be the biggest, or tied with other reasons, why we can't use it. There's little room to skim on other lands.

Entomb i think needs a specific effective gimmick to be worthwhile, but certainly sounds interesting. I mean we get Wonder when we don't have Survival (or naturally draw our 1-of AND bazaar), it gets half on Ancient Grudge, it gets Squee, it gets a land for DRS, and most notably it puts a Vengevine in the yard. It's kind of worse/different Survival i think, but does get to hit other things.

Demonic just crosses my mind as a generic but super powered card. You don't even have to get Bazaar or Survival with it to be good, you might also specifically want Chalice or a different non-creature. DT for Lotus is also a very strong play in this deck i think (and many decks anyway, but you know).

I'm going to try out Mana Crypt for sure, we shall see. Bloodghast might be a different build entirely but i want to try that as well. Maybe it wont' be good, maybe the deck for it should actually just even more aggro with less hate cards but seems sketch.

@gutocmtt could you make a sideboard guide for the bug list?

@swiftwarkite2 To be honest I really don't feel comfortable. I've been getting good results, but I still think I probably make some suboptimal sideboarding decisions, even more as I change the version I'm playing all the time. I kinda just go with my gut, see what cards are good against certain matchups, if they are fast enough and how far I can go on cutting my combo cards to avoid losing to myself.

I'm thinking about give a shot at streaming this deck though, and then I'd walk through my thinking process of it. I'll probably start tomorrow or friday, but I'll give a heads up here before.

@gutocmtt Hi, long time lurker, first time chatter.

Please, please, please stream vintage.

Anything I can do to help you with that, let me know.

Also, hope this is you: https://www.twitch.tv/gutocmtt

Hey @ChubbyRain thanks a lot for the entusiasm 🙂

Yeah, that's me ^^

It was kind of a last minute decision, but I've been postponing this decision for a while and I don't have all set up, but I'll just do it. I mean, if we wait for everything to be perfect, we never do it. I'll set things up along the way, and I'd love to have some help seting things up ^^

The only issue is I think most people will not like the time of the stream, as I live in Brazil and the best option for me in terms of personal organization is 3P.M. (which is 9a.m. pacific time, which I think is what people are used to use). If I continue streaming (which I intend to), it would probably be closer to 8pm here (2pm pacific).

@gutocmtt what is your optimal list for bug survival?

@swiftwarkite2 It's still the one I got 6-0 in the challenge, I was trying the dark survival and got back to it on tuesday. Maybe I'll make some little changes soon, but so far it's IMO the best we got.


@gutocmtt that's almost exactly where I've ended up as well, although the SB trygon turned into a nature's claim to have more cheap interaction against shops instead of 3 cmc. Fluster, trap, deep analysis are the most "flex" slots to adjust for an expected meta, and the only difference there is I fit treasure cruise in instead of trap.

Pharaoh: what are you trying to remove? Most decks don’t attack with creatures that matter, and the things you’d really like to get are often indestructible or draw around 14 cards. I guess it could be interesting against Oath unless they land Niv Mizzet?

Arbor: yeah, I played it for a couple weeks this summer and the number of times it was helpful to me were few, where the number of times it was actively bad were many.

Bloodghast: it hasn’t played because it doesn’t actually synergize with Vengevine and you have to discard it to ever get it back. That’s a lot of work for a 2/1.

@gutocmtt Nice to know about other Brazilian Vintage players like me ! I`ll try to watch your stream wheneaver possible ! 🙂

@maurobad Nice, thanks 😉 When I get back home next week I think I'll stream again, probably at night and with a better internet connection ^^

Just an update on the BUG version. I totally forgot assassin's trophy (which I ran in the dark version). It can hit planeswalkers (lost before to a Ral - which could be jace for those who would point out how good it is), opposing bazaars, leylines and everything else that abrupt and nature's claim could. I'm replacing abrupt and trygon (which I was going to change for nature's claim) for 2 assassin's trophy.

@gutocmtt how do you sideboard in the paradozical matchup with bug? do you take out vengevives?

@swiftwarkite2 Lately I'm trying not to overboard. I've tried the energy flux, but it's mostly a pitch to FoW, as 3 mana is a lot, mainly if we're bazaaring. I bring in 3 rods, 1 mindbreak and sometimes 1 assassin's trophy (never the 2 of them). I use to take out 1 DRS, 1 survival, 1 forest and 1 vengevine and/or 1 rootwalla

PS.: Right now it's a little bit different from the list I passed before:


@gutocmtt wouldent it be better to cut savahna instead of forest incase they have some path or wasteland affect?

@swiftwarkite2 They don't, but yeah, when you don't side in containment priest savannah can't be better than forest.

What's the second trophy for?

@john-cox Actually, I had cut abrupt (which is was for standard in the sb) for it, and then I was going to cut the trygon for nature's claim to have more cheap interaction as kaluma suggested, but then thought it hit much more things. But now that you mentioned... The only cases I would bring 2 assassin's trophy would be to deal with artifacts and enchantments (basically oath, survival, shops and eldrazi). Of those, only in the eldrazi case trophy would be better than nature's claim. But I use to use it against artifacts more than on non-artifact creatures, and the matchup is pretty favorable already.

That all being said, the second trophy is for getting replaced by nature's claim. Thanks a lot for the question, it helped me get to think a little bit and get to this conclusion 😉

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