I was just looking at the cards with Aftermath (I’d never seen them before) and I was thinking Driven//Despair might be a solid SB card against Outcome? I wonder if it would only matter in games we’re attacking for lethal anyway though?

@wfain The best one is probably Failure (Failure/Comply) if you wanna go that route. It gives you a turn where the opponent can't cast PO/Tinker/Tendrils/Dread Return or whatever you're afraid of.

last edited by fsecco

@bleedth3sky I'm playing 2 savannah, 2 trop, 2 bayou, forest, cradle, 6 fetches, 2 spirit guides, 4 mox + lotus as the mana base right now for the red-less build. I agree having double blue is important with energy flux as your shops plan (and wonder as you said). and there are other annoying wasteland decks like landstill or BUG/ czech pile that also attack your lands, plus the fact that you spew lands with bazaar a lot of the time - redundancy is really nice. Also, i never really liked riftstone portal as it is too cute and situational as well as awkward against some SB cards you face.

played a couple leagues the last few days without anger and went 2-3 then 4-1. first league was all oath decks and managed to go 1-2 against them and all the games felt surprisingly close. lots of oaths on an empty board without orchard and then long drawn out games maneuvering around that. squee shined one game with bazaar. really though, even tho the games were close, it made it clear that a lot of things had to go right to even stay in the game. second league played combo, czech, eldrazi and shops twice. lost to montolio one match, but overall felt really good. I like most of what the deck is trying to do 🙂

@kaluma one thing I’ve noticed if you don’t have Anger is it seems correct to board out most of all Hollow Ones against decks with Dack Fayden. Have you done this or not?
Does anyone else cut 1 or more Rootwala against shops?

@kaluma I think oath is just gonna be one of those match ups where we need something to go right which I think is fair and not much we can do. I think we hope PO takes a hit in restrictions so we can dedicate more sb space to decays or containment priests.

I think this deck attacks at many different angles and is incredibly resilient. I won a game vs Grixis Thieves where t1 they had 2 leylines and a cage and I won off of Thalia and bob beats with stony silence killing their mana.

I think we have a great chance against any deck that wants to play a "fair" game of vintage and it's oath and storm type decks where we struggle.

If red is only really good against oath for anger I think it's better to focus more on making every other match up better.

@wfain I've only ever cut one hollow one as them taking a single hollow one usually doesn't matter. I've found if they waste a turn stealing a hollow one I just survival out a wonder or more vines or attack and force a block; we can always get more vines back or end the chain with rootwalla into tasigur.

Edit: for shops no I like having as much pitch spells for bazaar as we want lands in hand and as chump blockers to buy turns if they start aggressive.

last edited by bleedth3sky

My plan against dack decks (blue fair decks really) is +2 decay, +thalia, +chains, -1 hollow, -manglehorn, -2 others depending on what I suspect their plan is. Trimming Mana guys against wrath's, squee drs or goyf against RiP etc. Hollow one is too explosive and good as a bazaar threat / survival chain ender to cut too many even if it feels bad to have one stolen.

My shops plan has been +3 Stony, +2 energy flux, +nature's claim, +1 decay, -thalia, -2 kambal, -thorn, -chalice, -bob, -1 survival. The sideboard cards are real good. Survival is awkward to cast and can be revokered. The big idiots plan is actually ok without sb cards sometimes.

Mox diamond works nice with hollow one and some other cards, just saying...

@kaluma yeah, I usually cut a Survival and a Rootwala vs Shops since the Spheres are very good against both cards.

@kaluma @wfain Survival Salad (called dredgevine) Got played my ross Merriam on SCG VS's Series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jjtNcW3Rcw

@bleedth3sky good video, thanks for sharing!! Showcasing the strengths of this deck: explosiveness, being a rogue strategy that is hard to board against, and how good this deck is when you forget that bazaar is not a spell and should count as your land drop (game 2, turn 1 was quite busted in part bc Ross played bazaar and then another land and spirit guide to play Bob haha). That matchup is often close, but Czech needs to have early countermagic and then cards to grind with. Force into Bob or ancestral is good, esp with drs backup. But even if they do, they still need to be able to answer the initial salvo from our end.

last edited by kaluma

@bleedth3sky nice! I added a comment on scg directing people to our thread.

He also missed lethal by chucking Wonder to Survival and turning all sideways in the air when he got tropical in play.

The Hornet Queens have again chosen to have Survival Salad in their pile of decks for team VSL tonight!

@wfain Indeed! Athena really enjoyed playing the deck, so I told her to come check out this thread, and see all the progress you all have made it on the list.

@oestrus Cool! Thanks for advocating!

After a couple medium leagues I managed to get another 5-0, this time testing out the red-less build but with two squee instead of any dark confidants. Squee is great against slower decks game 1 in particular and lets you bazaar with more abandon. He's not ideal against deathrites that are popping up everywhere, but that's the trade off. I also slotted in a second thalia over the second tarmogoyf, which for future leagues means i might swap in a containment priest for the SB thalia as a card against dredge and oath which are both a little dicey. At this point I feel like the deck is solid, just deciding what to hedge against. To note, haven't really missed anger at all yet and nature's claim in the board is a real card against UW & rest in peace.

also, shout out to Hornet Queens for repping in the VSL!! Tight games against a fairly poor matchup unfortunately.

@kaluma Second Thalia? I’ve had 2 for quite a while. Are you playing Kambal in the main or something? And at the point you’re cutting Bob for Squee it is probably not unreasonable to cut black out altogether. Change the Tasigur back to a Tarmogoyf and Kambal to a third Thalia.I would also consider a second Wonder if you cut down to 3 colors

last edited by wfain

@wfain Heres where I've landed for now:
4 bazaar
4 survival
4 VV
4 hollow one
4 rootwalla

2 BoP
1 Noble
2 DRS
2 spirit guide

1 wonder
1 manglehorn
1 tasigur
1 tarmogoyf

2 thalia
2 kambal
2 squee
1 thorn
1 chalice

1 time walk
1 ancestral

4 mox
1 lotus
6 fetches
2 of each dual
1 forest
1 cradle

SB
3 ravenous trap
2 energy flux
1 manglehorn
2 nature's claim
1 decay
3 stony silence
1 gilded drake
1 chains of mephistopheles
1 thalia (switching to containment priest)

tasigur has been solid. kambal i think is the best hate piece you can play. thalia is pretty good, but usually just a speed bump.

different idea to try out: BANT survival
offers more solid mana base, stack interaction. at the cost of deathrite as a threat, kambal as a hate piece, decay in the board.

4 bazaar
4 survival
4 VV
4 hollow one
4 rootwalla
4 Noble
3 spirit guide
1 dryad arbor
1 wonder
1 manglehorn
1 tarmogoyf
2 thalia
2 spell queller
2 squee
1 thorn
1 chalice
1 time walk
1 ancestral
4 mox
1 lotus
6 fetches
2 trop
3 savannah
2 forest
1 cradle
SB
3 ravenous trap
2 energy flux
1 manglehorn
2 nature's claim
3 stony silence
2 containment priest
1 mindbreak trap
1 flex spot (plow? another energy flux? kataki? thalia? traps? faerie macabre? sylvan library?)

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last edited by kaluma
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