For the versions running Noble Hierarch over Dr. Shaman, what advantage is there in running duals/fetches over City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Gemstone Mine? Even if your running Wonder wouldn't say 4 Trop, 4-6 fetch, and X Any color lands just be better? Just curious. Thanks!
I used to run Ravenous Trap in my list, but eventually decided to switchover to just Leyline of the Void. How do you sideboard for the matchup?
A lot of dredge lists in my area are pitch dredge lists, so sometimes my Ravenous Traps would be plucked out of my hand with Cabal Therapy before I could use them and/or get countered with Force of Will, so I decided to make the switch.
I haven't played Survival since WAR became legal, but Deputy of Detention had been an all-star when I ran it.
Regarding the Bant versions of survival, I found myself regularly outpaced by Paradoxical Outcome decks. Sure you could go 'full throttle' and jam out vengevines, but if you do not get it done in one swing, then they could combo off and it'll be over. Additionally, a lot of lists are bringing in Grafdigger's Cage to prevent this move, so you're already playing a slower, more methodical plan in this case.
Switching to the hatebear strategy (Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, etc) would work more consistently than the 'full throttle' plan, but without any interaction on their turn (aka countermagic), it felt very vulnerable to Karakas and Balance.
For the versions running Noble Hierarch over Dr. Shaman, what advantage is there in running duals/fetches over City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Gemstone Mine? Even if your running Wonder wouldn't say 4 Trop, 4-6 fetch, and X Any color lands just be better? Just curious. Thanks
Few rainbow lands don’t enable one to splash red or black cards and the cumulative lifeloss just adds up even in Vintage. I’d rather spend ’the excess lifepoints’ on Sylvan activations. Additionally fetches are very valuable against Wasteland heavy decks so I try to run as many fetches as possible over anything spicy.
My plan against Dredge:
+2 Ravenous Trap
-2 Hollow One
Leyline is certainly the most effective way to combat Dredge, but I'm not yet willing to sacrifice my well rounded SB (and plans) against most of the field just to get more edge against Dredge.
Manglehorn has found it's way back to MB because PO is a problem and Karakas is very effective against all the legendary hatebears. For the same reason I'm now running two Mindbreak Traps as often even Lavinia combined with a Stony Silence has not been enough to win the game. Fast combo is certainly an issue, but I do enjoy the play style of this kind of build (i.e. make them have the answer instead of trying to fight on stack). And so far my record against PO is good enough with plenty of games under my belt against it that no drastic measures need to be taken.
So I have a few reps under my belt now. My findings:
Basic island allows for a wasteland proof way to keep wonder online, this has been relevant a few times, and I expect it to be more relevant in paper given higher density if unpowered hate bears decks.
In my testing with gush it is either the perfect card or the worst card. Analysis is probably the better draw engine.
PO is playing repeal again, so I have shaved my third lavinia for a teeg. This also avoids some awkward double lavinia draws.
My current hate package in main is:
1 gaddoc teeg
1 containment priest
1 walking ballista (more there for the memnite trick)
2 deputy of detention
Deputy is great, but harder to cast, I am going to try a 1 deputy/1 manglehorn split. But it softens the mentor matchup.
My sideboard is currently:
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 energy Flux
2 nature's claim
2 containment priest
1 thorn of amethyst
2 ravenous trap
2 mindbreak trap
I think the lavinia I shaved should take the spot of the thorn. I am also considering moving the island to side.
I suspect with the shifts going on due to Karn and Narset it may be time to look at Jund again. Cratermaker is a very clean way to beat Karn. Bob gets around Narset a little bit. And Trophy, Decay, and Grudge are all really good cards on their own. Pyroblast and/or MM could be played as well.
Yeah, sounds like a good time indeed. Narset decks are still not a problem for us to beat, as narset is kinda like Lavinia: a good card against us, but a card that is played in decks that are a very favorable matchup for us. But karn decks are usually bad for us to beat. Too many things we have to answer with taxing effects to make it harder to be answered. It's funny, against bad pilots it's even favorable to us, but against good players my win rate against it is pretty low.
I didn't even have it anymore, I had sold everything I had except for a deck I had named 'weird survival' which became the normal survival to me. Now I think I gathered enough tix to buy this deck back, will surely give it a shot. I'm just not sure how will survival look like with modern horizons and all those cool toys that come with it.
I suspect with the shifts going on due to Karn and Narset it may be time to look at Jund again. Cratermaker is a very clean way to beat Karn.
Except aren't they immediately activating Karn and getting Mycosynth Lattice? Once that hits the field you cannot use Cratermaker.
I tried the outdated version with few adjustments, but feels like even though it's a 3-mana answer, they use to get those big cards out there before we get our answers there. And without fow, the dark version is actually worse against that deck. I'm not saying no, just saying we still would have a long way in terms of adjustments to get there. I think I'll try the bug version until after we get those new toys there, and if it is still the underdog it would be cool to try that. Also, being worse at playing Leovold makes it worse against xerox decks. More confidants than the bug version is nice (I'm playing only 1 from the SB in the BUG), but leovold is better against blue value decks.
@wfain Not sure if you have the single card discussions ignored (which is very reasonable).
I'm also a huge fan and played two leagues last night (6-4, lost to 2 karn decks, guto in the mirror, but I think I should have cast a Trademage instead of pitching it to survival since my creatures traded and Guto killed Survival and Hollow One with the Green Force, which was so good in the matchup, and lost to a JVP-Narset PW heavy deck I streamed a while back. NarKhan Control. Uses Sarkhan to reanimate a bunch of Walkers and swing for nearly 20 damage)
I was on 2 and want to go up to 3 in a Bant Shell without Force. The interesting thing is you can just cast it as a 3/4 and attack in some games, which is pretty reasonable, so I wanted to see how it plays with the exalted.
Didn't get to play it, but played a league with the other cards updated: ouphe, engineer and force. Got 5-1 with it so far but 2 were against someone playing gw old school, so it was probably only a 3-1. Are you guys playing bug? I really can't find slot for it and I don't imagine it being better than Leovold. I think the next card I would take out is phantasmal image as seems like PO das sucessfully hated out of the format for now. I switched trygon and scooze for ouphe and engineer MD.
Ooze has been a pretty good inclusion. It has it's awesome matchups (dredge, survival, bug fish), I think it's pretty good against UR xerox (URw not that much because stp), and against some combo decks it's kinda bad.
I'm still not sold on throwing it to the SB to play cards like engineer and ouphe. I haven't had enough opportunity to play engineer. Got to tutor for it twice, once it made a double kill against delver and pyro but a leovold would be probably as good there, and also killed a 1/1 ballista and made my opponent spend resources on his second to kill it. Sounds pretty good against creature decks.
While karn is still pretty dominant (and I expect that to last for quite some time unless it gets B/R) we have to have ouphe MD. It's an awesome target for survival in that matchup, we may get locked out of the game before playing it but if it lands it's pretty awesome.
As said in other topics, there is too much going on. I don't expect us to find a clear answer to those questions too soon. At least I won't, as I'm playing very few games lately compared to last year. Those 3 cards sounds like good 1-ofs for the maindeck.
After playing around with Bazaar Trademage I’m starting to consider the possibilities of playing straight UG Survival. Play all the Moxen and possibly Mana Crypt as well (to help cast Trademage on t1). Play 4 MM, 4 Fow, and 2 Force of Negation perhaps. Along with the traditional 20 cards + walk/recall/wonder/esg. How does that sound?