Yeah, sounds like a good time indeed. Narset decks are still not a problem for us to beat, as narset is kinda like Lavinia: a good card against us, but a card that is played in decks that are a very favorable matchup for us. But karn decks are usually bad for us to beat. Too many things we have to answer with taxing effects to make it harder to be answered. It's funny, against bad pilots it's even favorable to us, but against good players my win rate against it is pretty low.

I didn't even have it anymore, I had sold everything I had except for a deck I had named 'weird survival' which became the normal survival to me. Now I think I gathered enough tix to buy this deck back, will surely give it a shot. I'm just not sure how will survival look like with modern horizons and all those cool toys that come with it.

Yeah, the Null Rod guy is certainly something! The pitch spell that kills 2 artifacts is probably something too!

@wfain said in Survival:

I suspect with the shifts going on due to Karn and Narset it may be time to look at Jund again. Cratermaker is a very clean way to beat Karn.

Except aren't they immediately activating Karn and getting Mycosynth Lattice? Once that hits the field you cannot use Cratermaker.

they aren't always gonna have 10 mana in one turn, and having this on board with mana up kills karn before lattice resolves

@guslandt You’re gonna have access to some Ancient Grudge too, ol’Gus.

I tried the outdated version with few adjustments, but feels like even though it's a 3-mana answer, they use to get those big cards out there before we get our answers there. And without fow, the dark version is actually worse against that deck. I'm not saying no, just saying we still would have a long way in terms of adjustments to get there. I think I'll try the bug version until after we get those new toys there, and if it is still the underdog it would be cool to try that. Also, being worse at playing Leovold makes it worse against xerox decks. More confidants than the bug version is nice (I'm playing only 1 from the SB in the BUG), but leovold is better against blue value decks.

I’ve been messing with Bazaar Trademage. I’m very happy with it at 2 copies. 3 might even be correct.

@wfain Not sure if you have the single card discussions ignored (which is very reasonable).

I'm also a huge fan and played two leagues last night (6-4, lost to 2 karn decks, guto in the mirror, but I think I should have cast a Trademage instead of pitching it to survival since my creatures traded and Guto killed Survival and Hollow One with the Green Force, which was so good in the matchup, and lost to a JVP-Narset PW heavy deck I streamed a while back. NarKhan Control. Uses Sarkhan to reanimate a bunch of Walkers and swing for nearly 20 damage)

I was on 2 and want to go up to 3 in a Bant Shell without Force. The interesting thing is you can just cast it as a 3/4 and attack in some games, which is pretty reasonable, so I wanted to see how it plays with the exalted.

Didn't get to play it, but played a league with the other cards updated: ouphe, engineer and force. Got 5-1 with it so far but 2 were against someone playing gw old school, so it was probably only a 3-1. Are you guys playing bug? I really can't find slot for it and I don't imagine it being better than Leovold. I think the next card I would take out is phantasmal image as seems like PO das sucessfully hated out of the format for now. I switched trygon and scooze for ouphe and engineer MD.

How have ooze and engineer been?

Ooze has been a pretty good inclusion. It has it's awesome matchups (dredge, survival, bug fish), I think it's pretty good against UR xerox (URw not that much because stp), and against some combo decks it's kinda bad.

I'm still not sold on throwing it to the SB to play cards like engineer and ouphe. I haven't had enough opportunity to play engineer. Got to tutor for it twice, once it made a double kill against delver and pyro but a leovold would be probably as good there, and also killed a 1/1 ballista and made my opponent spend resources on his second to kill it. Sounds pretty good against creature decks.

While karn is still pretty dominant (and I expect that to last for quite some time unless it gets B/R) we have to have ouphe MD. It's an awesome target for survival in that matchup, we may get locked out of the game before playing it but if it lands it's pretty awesome.

As said in other topics, there is too much going on. I don't expect us to find a clear answer to those questions too soon. At least I won't, as I'm playing very few games lately compared to last year. Those 3 cards sounds like good 1-ofs for the maindeck.

After playing around with Bazaar Trademage I’m starting to consider the possibilities of playing straight UG Survival. Play all the Moxen and possibly Mana Crypt as well (to help cast Trademage on t1). Play 4 MM, 4 Fow, and 2 Force of Negation perhaps. Along with the traditional 20 cards + walk/recall/wonder/esg. How does that sound?

Go for it. Format is all over the place and won't be settled for like another year. Try whatever you want.

Wow love all these ideas and new cards. Anyone test out Hogaak as an additional way to power out a huge creature in the early turns?

I was using Hooting Mandrills for a bit. He seems functionally better than that.

@kaluma
I don’t feel like he’d work in a traditional Survival shell, but if there is a way to hybridize the VV/Rootwala thing into a dredge style deck...

There are a lot more BUG decks in Vintage right now, relying on Tarmogoyf to brick the opponents creatures. While you can look to Bazaar Trademage, Andy Probasco's sweet Death's Shadow tech from the TSI, or Deputy of Detention, I don't think Hooting Mandrils has the same functionality. That's kind of where Hogaak fits in to me.

Plus the card is absolutely nuts.

@chubbyrain
I’m testing two Hogakk right now in a bug shell with 2 Trademage and 10 counterspells.

last edited by wfain

Going well so far. 8-2 in matches (3-2 and 5-0 leagues). [EDIT: since posted 2-3 and 4-1 bringing total to 14-6, feels pretty solid]
Hogaak did come into play a couple times, even triggering VV once. I'm going to try recording the replays of the last league to share.>

0_1560708913413_hogaakvine.JPG

https://youtu.be/26jdzR2e70s
https://youtu.be/Zdfz60DMRHA
https://youtu.be/KM0mMtDmIlw
https://youtu.be/Oydjz35AZbc

last edited by wfain

@wfain That's pretty cool! I've been trying BUG with 1 Ouphe in the MD, and it's been winning always when I get to play it before I'm already dead against karn decks. I feel like Phantasmal Image is worse than it for the MD (I've actually just cut it for 1 copy of Hoogak right now). There is almost no blightsteel lately, at least that's how I'm feeling. And now that we have Hoogak, we have eternal blockers for blightsteel if we have an active Survival, Hoogak + 1 vengevine already blocks it totally and can be fetched+cast for about as much as we spend for phantasmal image.

Maybe if there would be tons of extra colossus out there it would be worth it, but for now I think phantasmal image isn't even worth a slot in the SB. Maybe you see things differently, but I always had it as a 'no-brainer' until I started thinking about it with this unstable meta we have right now.

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