I tried the outdated version with few adjustments, but feels like even though it's a 3-mana answer, they use to get those big cards out there before we get our answers there. And without fow, the dark version is actually worse against that deck. I'm not saying no, just saying we still would have a long way in terms of adjustments to get there. I think I'll try the bug version until after we get those new toys there, and if it is still the underdog it would be cool to try that. Also, being worse at playing Leovold makes it worse against xerox decks. More confidants than the bug version is nice (I'm playing only 1 from the SB in the BUG), but leovold is better against blue value decks.
@wfain Not sure if you have the single card discussions ignored (which is very reasonable).
I'm also a huge fan and played two leagues last night (6-4, lost to 2 karn decks, guto in the mirror, but I think I should have cast a Trademage instead of pitching it to survival since my creatures traded and Guto killed Survival and Hollow One with the Green Force, which was so good in the matchup, and lost to a JVP-Narset PW heavy deck I streamed a while back. NarKhan Control. Uses Sarkhan to reanimate a bunch of Walkers and swing for nearly 20 damage)
I was on 2 and want to go up to 3 in a Bant Shell without Force. The interesting thing is you can just cast it as a 3/4 and attack in some games, which is pretty reasonable, so I wanted to see how it plays with the exalted.
Didn't get to play it, but played a league with the other cards updated: ouphe, engineer and force. Got 5-1 with it so far but 2 were against someone playing gw old school, so it was probably only a 3-1. Are you guys playing bug? I really can't find slot for it and I don't imagine it being better than Leovold. I think the next card I would take out is phantasmal image as seems like PO das sucessfully hated out of the format for now. I switched trygon and scooze for ouphe and engineer MD.
Ooze has been a pretty good inclusion. It has it's awesome matchups (dredge, survival, bug fish), I think it's pretty good against UR xerox (URw not that much because stp), and against some combo decks it's kinda bad.
I'm still not sold on throwing it to the SB to play cards like engineer and ouphe. I haven't had enough opportunity to play engineer. Got to tutor for it twice, once it made a double kill against delver and pyro but a leovold would be probably as good there, and also killed a 1/1 ballista and made my opponent spend resources on his second to kill it. Sounds pretty good against creature decks.
While karn is still pretty dominant (and I expect that to last for quite some time unless it gets B/R) we have to have ouphe MD. It's an awesome target for survival in that matchup, we may get locked out of the game before playing it but if it lands it's pretty awesome.
As said in other topics, there is too much going on. I don't expect us to find a clear answer to those questions too soon. At least I won't, as I'm playing very few games lately compared to last year. Those 3 cards sounds like good 1-ofs for the maindeck.
After playing around with Bazaar Trademage I’m starting to consider the possibilities of playing straight UG Survival. Play all the Moxen and possibly Mana Crypt as well (to help cast Trademage on t1). Play 4 MM, 4 Fow, and 2 Force of Negation perhaps. Along with the traditional 20 cards + walk/recall/wonder/esg. How does that sound?
There are a lot more BUG decks in Vintage right now, relying on Tarmogoyf to brick the opponents creatures. While you can look to Bazaar Trademage, Andy Probasco's sweet Death's Shadow tech from the TSI, or Deputy of Detention, I don't think Hooting Mandrils has the same functionality. That's kind of where Hogaak fits in to me.
Plus the card is absolutely nuts.
Going well so far. 8-2 in matches (3-2 and 5-0 leagues). [EDIT: since posted 2-3 and 4-1 bringing total to 14-6, feels pretty solid]
Hogaak did come into play a couple times, even triggering VV once. I'm going to try recording the replays of the last league to share.>
@wfain That's pretty cool! I've been trying BUG with 1 Ouphe in the MD, and it's been winning always when I get to play it before I'm already dead against karn decks. I feel like Phantasmal Image is worse than it for the MD (I've actually just cut it for 1 copy of Hoogak right now). There is almost no blightsteel lately, at least that's how I'm feeling. And now that we have Hoogak, we have eternal blockers for blightsteel if we have an active Survival, Hoogak + 1 vengevine already blocks it totally and can be fetched+cast for about as much as we spend for phantasmal image.
Maybe if there would be tons of extra colossus out there it would be worth it, but for now I think phantasmal image isn't even worth a slot in the SB. Maybe you see things differently, but I always had it as a 'no-brainer' until I started thinking about it with this unstable meta we have right now.
The biggest selling points on PI for me are it gives you the ability to one shot someone with “5” VV, it’s blue (and with 6 Forces main you need 18 blue minimum in my opinion), and it gives you those corner case outs to things like BSC. Maybe you’re correct and those aren’t good enough reasons (I suspect whatever you replace it with should be blue, though).
@wfain Yeah, hitting with 5 VVs have been useful from times to times (usually against combo decks). But I really think it's not worth it anymore.
BTW, I think I'll take a little bit of a timeout. A format full of dredge is a format not worth playing. It never was a deck nice to play against with any of the decks I ever played but at least it wasn't ridiculous to play against. Now it's everywhere, better and more boring than ever.
Put up another 4-1. Lost to GW Stoneforge hate bears (lots of Path to Exile). I think it might be worthwhile to change 1 of the Ouphe to a Manglehorn or Trygone Predator. It would be nice to be able to use Survival to blow up something like RiP, Batterskull, Leyline, etc rather than just get a Null Rod. I also changed Faerie Macabre to Yixlid Jailer btw.
I also wonder if Anger might deserve it’s space back if Hogaak is going to play? That’s probably not a counterspell version though.