@wfain yeah, pyroblast seems great but I'm really not sure about the red splash. Tried a 4c without black yesterday with thalia, the very old version with grudges and felt kinda bad. I tried something along the bant version that was around, with the amount of relevant permanents deputy seems pretty good and Lavinia has always been. So far played only 1 match with it but seemed better. Got to fight the otherwise almost unbeatable sphynx and Lavinia is kind of a must counter against blue decks.

Fastbond is pretty serious, got beat up badly yesterday against IAmActuallyLvl1 with a amulet titan with infinite mana turn 2 (t1 amulet into t2 bounceland and fastbond). The deck seems pretty good and it's probably not even close to ideal.

1 chalice and 1 misstep sound good to have too.

@gutocmtt
I was kinda thinking about Jund Survival. Just cut the blue cards in favor of VT and DT (maybe Wheel too?).

@wfain I’ve tested Jund and it felt really strong.
Wheel has always felt really strong to me. You also get faithless looting which can give you a lot of action in certain situations and let you have some selection later in the game.
Also Domri Felt really good in those colors especially in post board grinding matches

Also get ancient grudge and the new Red madness creature that lets you pitch your hand and draw three cards. Which I really want to test.

@poxeveryturn
I was considering some of those as well, plus Anger is pretty helpful with hogaak

@wfain I was trying it before Hogaak was printed but he would definitely give the color scheme a huge upgrade.

Anger is a good idea as well. I didn’t test him but 8/8 Hogaaks with haste seem quite strong.

@poxeveryturn
They are, finish the chain with it instead of HO if you have a DRS or extra Rootwala on board already, or something big to bust through Tarmogoyf.

@wfain speaking of goyf he seems really strong in a jund type build. I’ve tested him as a 1-2x in multiple builds and I feel like he’s strong but I’ve never committed to him in multiples.
I feel like he should have a place as a strong post board beater.

@poxeveryturn
I used to have 1 main. It depends on most prominent GY hate, maybe he’s good again?

@wfain I mean lately I see a lot of jailer and priest. Some cage and a lot of trap. And crypt is normally is specific decks smattered around.
Trap is easy enough to play around especially in a jund build that might play looting which makes it even easier.
Seems like he could be a strong 1-2x as a beater and a way to buy time.
Obviously if we start to see more RIP that analysis changes but not sure we will.

Another card I’ve been considering in the board is scroll of fate. It probably sounds lame but it lets you grind out games really hard against fair decks. Not only can you put beaters face down but you can also manifest lands and other random dead cards mid-late game. Let’s you put pressure on the opponent when you are otherwise stalling (and yes you can hide a dreadnought which I’ve defitniely been testing just because I love that card). A lot of decks will just lose to a 2/2 every turn plus hardcasting other stuff.

Not sure if it has legs yet but it shows promise for sure.

Has anyone done any testing with Glory?

I ran it in my board when I was playing survival lands as a way to protect hexmage and Marit Lage. It worked well there but that was a rather odd build with plenty of mana to soak up the cost.

In a normal build it may be slightly mana intensive but I can’t help but feel it has utility against decks like bug where you can have your rootwalla chump a goyf all day and use it as a way to push through damage. As well as mirror matches in the case of a board stall. Lastly it saves your guys from being picked off the board by removal. Oh and it has that super sweet promo foil printing(style points).

The down sides being it is mana intensive as mentioned above and it does get shut off by jailer and it’s mana intensive cost requires white mana.

Just thought I’d bring it up. It’s a card I think can use some thinking about.

@poxeveryturn
I’m not sure how it’s better than Wonder at pushing damage? And I think if you need removal resilience Genesis might be better?

Is there a world where misdirection makes a comeback as a way to protect creatures, or does the deck find itself hell-bent too often for that?

White splash gives us lots of good hatebears, but black splash gives us Leovold. And that drawing-cards-bottleneck is SO good. Hell, it even impacts Dredge! Is it possible that fitting in Leovold/Narset is better against the field than Thalia, Lavinia, Containment Priest, etc?

@mirrislegend
If that’s the plan, I think you have to be 4c with Pyroblast to protect Leo. Narset is an absolute no for me though.

There is almost no real drawback to playing 5 colors in these lists. Deathrite can produce any color and you have two 4-of discard outlets.

@mike-noble Because the manabase is really no worse for these decks to go from 3 to 5 colors.

The only required color for the deck is Green. So if you want to be minimalist on that aspect, you could run a manabase of Forests.

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