You’re going to have to explain this stuff or something. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Jace in a deck with almost nothing to flashback? DRS when you have only 4 fetches and 11 total lands? Vexing Devil and Ghoultree and dinosaurs? What is the point of all this stuff?

last edited by wfain

@wfain It's just flood, ignore it.

I played a little bit the last days and apparently DRS is having some trouble being alive. I also feel like Lavinia was great in it's first tests and even though I love the BUG versions I think a bant base is better ATM. I played bant without force (actually it was just a variant of the first versions of the deck, before all this new editions fuzz). Maybe it would be better with blue force instead of going for green force. I know the trend right now is 'FORCE OF VIGOR RULEZ' but in this combo/blue meta I'm missing force of will A LOT. And even though force of vigor has it's moments, I feel like FoW is more reliable in helping us win the games. I may be wrong as I didn't play more than 3 or 4 leagues but that's how I feel the meta right now.

BTW, I feel like flusterstorm is kinda where we want to be on instead of pyroblast. As stated before, it's hard to run any combination of Lavinia, Leovold and Pyroblast due to manabase issues. That's a shame, because without misstep pyroblast is a house right now, but with FoW maybe flusterstorm can have a similar role. And Veil of Summer is a ridiculous card but people are very aware of it. It's hard to use it as a cryptic command reliablely, mainly when we are not the deck who has to be stopped, but the deck who has to stop another (a.k.a. the 'weaker combo'). Pyroblast or flusterstorm have to have a room in the deck. And for those who have it, maybe even force of negation as FoWs 5+.

last edited by GutoCmtt

I think the recent list is getting away from survival and becoming a different deck entirely (@YakuzaXRock).

Since this is a survival thread, can these recent sets of discussions regarding graveyard strategies non-survival related start a new thread?

That’s probably reasonable. I’ve actually been thinking about working Tinker+Bot/Citadel in to give another route to take. Tinker in to Citadel seems especially good against anyone relying on Priest/Jailer/Trap/Leyline

Could any of you kindly share an actual Survival list you've been using in this new meta?


I ran the following list last weekend (prior to the B/R) list - a Bant list.

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Force of Vigor*
3 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chart a Course
1 Time Walk
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
3 Basking Rootwalla*
2 Collector Ouphe
2 Deputy of Detention*
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Wonder
2 Lavina, Azorius Renegade
1 Unsettled Mariner*
1 Spell Queller
1 Bazaar Trademage*
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra*
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains*
1 Island*
1 Forest

2 Detention Sphere*
4 Rest in Peace*
2 Nature’s Claim
2 Containment Priest
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Force of Vigor
1 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Phantasmal Image*
1 Stony Silence

*: Slots/Numbers to reconsider post B/R announcement and tournament.

I originally thought BUG was going to be all over the place, so I decided to cut Black entirely for a more resilient manabase and used Rest in Peace instead of Leyline of the Void, because of Tarmogoyf.

My thought process was to just go toe-to-toe vs. Tarmogoyf with Rest in Peace by hardcasting Vengevine and Hollow One (4/3 and 4/4 beat 0/1 Tarmogoyfs all day).

Furthermore, the thought of fixing the manabase with Riftstone Portal came to mind, but all the Deathrite Shaman at the time scared me out of it.

With all the maindeck artifact hate, I also decided to add more sideboard removal in form of detention sphere (to have a combination of Deputy of Detention and Detention Sphere). To play these efficienlyt, I modified my manabase to have the basic island/plains, and interestingly enough: running more basics seemed like a solid move with all the assassin's trophy running around.

The day of the event, I kept some really sketchy keeps, and they really cost me.

Around March 2019, I used to run a non-countermagic configuration and seemed to get completely blown out by Paradoxical Outcome almost all the time.

My main defense at the time was Stony Silence (since Collector Ouphe wasn't available just yet) and Gaddock Teeg.

The problem that I had (back in March, prior to adding Blue) is that you could navigate the game to a stalemate and/or get blown out by Karakas so they can go off.

That said, I am overhearing that storm is making a comeback in lieu of B/R announcements, so finding space for Unsettled Mariner might be an interesting take now.

Currently testing this, feels pretty good so far:



I notice only 14 blue cards (14 main, two sideboard) in your list. Is there a problem with supporting blue for Force of Will with such a small number?

I was originally basing the number of Force of Will I could play by the old calculation: 4 blue cards for every 1 FoW.
Does this apply here?
Should this rule still apply?

I actually fiddled with it a bit more to add a deputy of detention to get to 15. Cut Squee. I think 15 is fine since you’re only expecting to use the first FoW. After that it’s unlikely to be anything but discarded to Bazaar anyways.

last edited by wfain

I'm still torn between GUB and GUW. Bant provides a plethora of hatebears to spread throughout the MD and the SB. But BUG has Leovold, which is the best hate creature in the format (besides Ouphe, obviously).
Anyone have a preference between BUG and Bant? Or arguments regarding my assessment of the two?

Hey Mike have you tried Anger? I had some “recent success”(prior to the printing of Walking Ballista) with TNT. I thought it was amazing at the time but Ballista coming out made me not want to play it anymore.


I suppose it shouldn’t be too bad though if you can shut down Ballista with Revoker and keep using your own Triskelions

last edited by Guest

I had a thought...

with mental misstep restricted, has there been any thought on porting over a setup of survival that got it banned in legacy years ago?

I do not know very much about legacy, but I did find an article about survival from years past by flores:

Link provided below:

Looks like several survival approaches were used prior to the legacy banning:
(1) ooze survival (necrotic ooze, phyrexian devourer, triskelion/walking ballista)
(2) g/w survival
(3) u/g survival
(4) retainer survival

Is the contemporary approach (vengevine, hollow one, basking rootwalla chain) just a better option?

What about the current secondary modi operandi (1) hatebears plan (2) hogaak (3) control elements?

Would there be any merit to incorporating the former legacy plans (for reference, the banning occurred in 2010)?

My initial guess is that the printing of Hollow One (printed 2017) just outclasses the old technology, but I would love to hear the thoughts of others on the matter.

Yeah, I think you’ve got the handle on it. Having access to Bazaar and Hollow One makes the legacy combo stuff pretty pointless. In general though, the gw and ug versions feel a bit like the vintage version.

so I've been noticing that tangram's Survival list gave up countermagic (except for Mental Misstep) at this point.


Are we aiming to just 'be the beatdown' now and give up trying to fight a counter war these days?

Pretty normal now it appears. Losing Misstep decreased the blue count for FoW in the overall tempo plan. Gaining Ouphe helped the combo matchup as well. Probably a mix of factors.

last edited by AeonSovarius

I think a mix of 3-4 Ouphe, 3-4 Deafening Silence in your 75 are better than Force of Will at fighting broken in SotF. Moving back to Thalia2CMC hurts vs. shops but she's not a complete brick if you have an Ouphe out.

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