There are a lot more BUG decks in Vintage right now, relying on Tarmogoyf to brick the opponents creatures. While you can look to Bazaar Trademage, Andy Probasco's sweet Death's Shadow tech from the TSI, or Deputy of Detention, I don't think Hooting Mandrils has the same functionality. That's kind of where Hogaak fits in to me.
Plus the card is absolutely nuts.
Going well so far. 8-2 in matches (3-2 and 5-0 leagues). [EDIT: since posted 2-3 and 4-1 bringing total to 14-6, feels pretty solid]
Hogaak did come into play a couple times, even triggering VV once. I'm going to try recording the replays of the last league to share.>
@wfain That's pretty cool! I've been trying BUG with 1 Ouphe in the MD, and it's been winning always when I get to play it before I'm already dead against karn decks. I feel like Phantasmal Image is worse than it for the MD (I've actually just cut it for 1 copy of Hoogak right now). There is almost no blightsteel lately, at least that's how I'm feeling. And now that we have Hoogak, we have eternal blockers for blightsteel if we have an active Survival, Hoogak + 1 vengevine already blocks it totally and can be fetched+cast for about as much as we spend for phantasmal image.
Maybe if there would be tons of extra colossus out there it would be worth it, but for now I think phantasmal image isn't even worth a slot in the SB. Maybe you see things differently, but I always had it as a 'no-brainer' until I started thinking about it with this unstable meta we have right now.
The biggest selling points on PI for me are it gives you the ability to one shot someone with “5” VV, it’s blue (and with 6 Forces main you need 18 blue minimum in my opinion), and it gives you those corner case outs to things like BSC. Maybe you’re correct and those aren’t good enough reasons (I suspect whatever you replace it with should be blue, though).
@wfain Yeah, hitting with 5 VVs have been useful from times to times (usually against combo decks). But I really think it's not worth it anymore.
BTW, I think I'll take a little bit of a timeout. A format full of dredge is a format not worth playing. It never was a deck nice to play against with any of the decks I ever played but at least it wasn't ridiculous to play against. Now it's everywhere, better and more boring than ever.
Put up another 4-1. Lost to GW Stoneforge hate bears (lots of Path to Exile). I think it might be worthwhile to change 1 of the Ouphe to a Manglehorn or Trygone Predator. It would be nice to be able to use Survival to blow up something like RiP, Batterskull, Leyline, etc rather than just get a Null Rod. I also changed Faerie Macabre to Yixlid Jailer btw.
I also wonder if Anger might deserve it’s space back if Hogaak is going to play? That’s probably not a counterspell version though.
I came 3rd in my countries largest annual vintage event with the list below:
4 Hollow One
4 Basking Rootwalla
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
Creatures that make mana:
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 gaddoc teeg
1 Containment Priest
1 Walking Ballista (more there for the Memnite trick)
2 Deputy of Detention
1 Sylvan Library
3 Stony Silence
Survival of the Fittest and Bazaars:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
Lands that make mana:
3 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Riftstone Portal
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Energy Flux
1 Null Rod
2 Nature's Claim
2 Containment Priest
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Mindbreak Trap
This was a week ago, so no Modern Horizons. The list felt excellent, I was undefeated in swiss, then punted against dredge in the semifinals. Opponent had main deck hollow ones, so t1 containment priest with no follow up was not enough, game 2 I took a risky line and just miscounted after a long day of mtg.
Matchups to get there were: Bye, PO storm, PO storm, Depths, Tinker/key, ID. Quarters was eldrazi.
I highly recommend this deck for paper tournaments, since wonder makes the eldrazi matchup very easy, and there were about 9 players on that deck.
I have been seeing new lists cutting lavina, and I think that is very wrong. She single handedly crushed the PO decks by buying me extra turns.
@themanadrian Congrats on the finish.
PO is not really a factor in the current MTGO metagame as it put up 0 slots in the top 32 of the Vintage Challenge and has been maybe at 1-2 copy for a while. Some people play it but generally the deck is in the single digits of the metagame. I don't doubt that it's more substantial in Paper but the Paper metagame tends to lag behind MTGO. Just keep in mind that decks are built with different metagames in mind and that card choices are not inherently right or wrong independent of that context.
I do agree with you that Lavinia has a place in the current and future metagame by shutting down free spells such as Force of Vigor.
This deck has gone 5-0, 4-1, and a 4-2 in the challenge this past week with a list I haven't really seen anyone else trying. The only loss in leagues involved two mulls to 4. I bubbled out of the top 8 after losing a win and in where I played pretty horridly.
I've found force of vigor to be just better interaction than force of will recently, and being virtually mono green pre board has felt very good. The most broken draws still involve vengevine and hollow one, but the addition of hogaak and bloodghast have made the average draws a lot more aggressive. Hogaak has made soft hate look pathetic, and pretty much every match I've lost I feel like it was my play errors that caused it, not the deck being beat.
That’s very interesting. I find the opposite to be true. I don’t really care about artifacts that aren’t Trinisphere. Karn is probably the most annoying card besides. That’s why I prefer the blue cards right now. I also struggle to believe not having access to Recall, Walk, and Wonder is correct (maybe Wonder matters less now that Shops is no longer an agro deck?)
I have, on the other hand, been thinking about a cross between the VV, Rootwala, HO stuff and more dredge style deck with Gravecrawler, Bridge, Therapy, Bloodghast, Hogaak, etc.
Killing artifacts and enchantments is relevant against every deck in the format, even dredge because of hollow one and leylines. I've found maindeck FoV to interact well with everything, shops based decks the most obvious example. Killing revokers and ballistas is really good, and often a double stone rain is also good enough.
Ancestral and time walk are obviously powerful cards, but I'm not sure they're actually necessary. I want to be attacking turn 1 or 2, and late game is hopefully locked into DRS or hogaak. I've actually missed wonder a couple times, notably in the mirror, but hogaak is still generally enough to get damage through.
I also considered going deeper into a bridgevine style deck, but I don't think that version is any faster or more resilient than the current version.
I've been trying something close to thelastgnu's list, and bazaar trademage as a 1 of has been pretty good. While Leovold is awesome against pyromancer decks, trademage has been good in most of the times I draw it. I don't think the second one would be great at bug though.
Ooze has been amazing. I'm using 1 in the main and 1 in the SB. When I play against dredge, it's better than containment priest. To have a shot against dredge we have to dilute the deck to a point where sometimes 1 or 2 hollow ones are enough to beat us. And as you know, enchantments and artifacts aren't good anymore as GY hate.
Ooze just becomes a monster, a hate card that is also an amazing finisher. Against survival it's ridiculous too, yesterday it won me a match against survival almost on it's own. It can be big against shops and against xerox it's pretty good at keeping GY at bay while being usually far from bolt range. It kinda reminds me of goyf in some matchups but it can win games on it's own. I'm not sold on the second one maindeck, but I'm sure 1 main 1 sideboard is the minimum I would play from now on.
I won't say I have the answer to how the deck should be, as I'm leaving MTGO a little bit aside in the last few months and there are a lot of things going on. When I thought I had it figured out, I started losing again to xerox (I was undefeated against it for like 10 matches, it was pretty easy for a while), and even oath has gotten better against the list I had. But whatever the best list looks like, I bet it has at least 1 copy of scooze.
A few cards that I have been testing recently has been Unsettled Mariner (if you plan to stay Bant (UGW) or 4 color (not red).
With all the force of vigor going around, it sounds like a nice way to protect your stuff.
I'll have to try out scavenging ooze. That completely missed my radar.
I’m currently testing out a 4 Trademage version with no survivals.
I played a list a while back with no survival and 8 loot effects. It was very good but would have rolled over to missteps on my loot cards. Bazaar Trademage is an upgrade. I don't know if 4 is enough.