@gutocmtt wouldent it be better to cut savahna instead of forest incase they have some path or wasteland affect?

@swiftwarkite2 They don't, but yeah, when you don't side in containment priest savannah can't be better than forest.

@gutocmtt
What's the second trophy for?

@john-cox Actually, I had cut abrupt (which is was for standard in the sb) for it, and then I was going to cut the trygon for nature's claim to have more cheap interaction as kaluma suggested, but then thought it hit much more things. But now that you mentioned... The only cases I would bring 2 assassin's trophy would be to deal with artifacts and enchantments (basically oath, survival, shops and eldrazi). Of those, only in the eldrazi case trophy would be better than nature's claim. But I use to use it against artifacts more than on non-artifact creatures, and the matchup is pretty favorable already.

That all being said, the second trophy is for getting replaced by nature's claim. Thanks a lot for the question, it helped me get to think a little bit and get to this conclusion 😉

@gutocmtt
I prefer the second Trophy. It’s far superior imo. Only worse against Shops, but not much worse. It is 100% better vs Oath, better in the mirror and vs Dredge (blowing up Bazaar is pretty decent).
To me the only time Shops is tough is when they lead on Trinisphere or can put incredible pressure via Overseer on turn 1. Claim does help in the latter case, but not necessarily the former.

@wfain I don't think so. The extra colored mana is pretty relevant, whenever I play it, feels heavy. I prefer claim in the mirror and oath, the extra 2 mana in the beginning of the game (the 1 you pay extra and the 1 they get) is pretty relevant. Hitting creatures and lands is cute, but that's not what we bring claim in for.

@gutocmtt even a rudorentamy sideboard guide would be helpfull as i have no idea what to put in or out as i am completly new to vintage

@gutocmtt the main matchups like the mirror outcome dack
shops and oath

@swiftwarkite2

mirror:
IN: 2 claims, 3 rav traps, 1 decay, maybe 1 priest.
OUT: 1 forest (or savannah if no priest), 4 force of wills, 1 flusterstorm

PO:
IN: 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap, 2 energy flux (mostly bc it's blue, situationally good, but don't think this is a great card.)
OUT: 1 savannah, 1-2 Deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 0-1 survival, 0-1 squee.

Pyromancer:
IN: 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap (easy enough to turn on with snapcasters and stuff) 0-2 claims (if you see or suspect leyline. probably bring them in against white for RiP)
OUT: 1-2 Hollow One, 1 Phantasmal Image, 0-1 Savannah (depending on how much you bring in, if you see wasteland)

Shops:
IN: 1 decay, 2 claims, 2 energy flux, 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 4 force of will, 2 misstep, 1 flusterstorm, 1 treasure cruise (you're left with some bad cards still in the deck, but misstep can hit SB hate like cage or relic)

Oath:
IN: 3 priests, 2 claims, 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 1 forest, 1-2 deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 1 vengevine, 1 squee, 1 wonder.

these are some guidelines. SB'ing with BUG is generally trickier than SB'ing with the other versions. There is a lot more "shaving" and you need to keep track of your blue count for Force (or side FoW out and not worry). 17 blue cards is the lowest i would go and still think there is a reasonable chance of casting a force of will. I play 18 blue cards main, and can SB up to a few more when having FoW is important.

last edited by kaluma

@kaluma personally I take Hollow Ones and maybe a Bazaar instead of Vengevine, Wonder, and Rootwala vs Oath. Keeping the ability to Survival out 19 or more damage EoT is better than artifacts they want to Dack or Grudge anyways.

@wfain okay. oath is a kind of weird one, as it can go a few different ways:
(a) you have answers to oath and can deploy your normal game-plan
(b) you don't have answers to oath, but you can sit back without playing creatures
(c) you don't have answers to oath, but you can be hyper-aggressive enough to race them finding one

scenario (a) is good for you regardless - be aggressive and answer their main plan. don't give them time to find more answers or hardcast something silly.
scenario (b) means you have survival active, or perhaps bazaar plus squee to sculpt a winning board in the face of an oath (minus orchard). Here you would like to have squee, all the vengevines, a couple rootwalla and/or hollow one are okay to hold on to while you wait for a big turn.
scenario (c) you want to have the fastest clock possible, meaning a hollow one (or two) on turn 1 can actually win the game against a mediocre oath draw. Rootwalla or deathrite are a much slower clock AND leave you vulnerable.

overall, i try to SB to have (b) be an option, but still playing towards (c) as more likely. Playing passively and waiting around while the blue deck can sculpt their hand, find oaths, develop their mana, etc., is less likely to be a winning strategy than "making them have it" (and then possibly finding an answer yourself). Keeping the big, fat, threats like hollow one and trimming the dorky slow threats like rootwalla and drs is my plan. Wonder has applications, but is pretty niche - i could see keeping it mostly as a blue creature over some other card. With this general plan I've been about 55% winrate against Oath variants while playing the FoW Survival.

that being said, if you do see a pile of grudges and dacks, yes obv cut some hollow ones. Luckily, if you die to oath game 1, you can see a lot of their deck get spilled into the GY.

last edited by kaluma

@kaluma
Right, that just so happens to be the normal Oath deck (Dacks and/or Grudges). I’d cut all the DRS before I cut any Hollow Ones, but I’d cut HO before any VV or BR.

I just started playing again recently after picking up the BUG "SurvivaWill" and BUrG Dark confidant list @wfain posted earlier.

Biggest thoughts compared to the old bant ver. I had previously is t1 Deathrite doesn't do as much vs shops as t1 Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch on long games. The graveyards just not full enough especially if they have gy nukes like TheAtogLord lists tend to run. T1 forest into BoP then t2 Null Rod Secured many games.

Second was really missed the second Trop in the Bob list; hurt vs shops when I needed wonder to win game 1 but had to pitch my only trop on t1. So I went up to 18 lands mirroring the non bob list I saw.

SB loam seems unwieldy vs shops. Even vs stax I either couldn't cast it or lost the lands trying to feed Deathrite to cast anything if I draw if off the top turns in.

I have never been unhappy having Leyline of the Void vs Rav Trap. Even bringing in 1 or 2 vs Dack decks since I tend to mull a lot brings the "oops I have no answer" sometimes which even just delaying them is enough.

last edited by bleedth3sky

I’ve read the first few posts, so forgive me if this was answered somewhere after that: what is the counter to this strategy? It seems like RIP alone isn’t great, nor Swords/Balance, but a combination of graveyard hate and creature control is needed to beat this deck. Is Jeskai the worst matchup?

@miryafa Yes, it's a combination of those. I think the worst matchups are the combo matchups. Even with the BUG version. With the bug version, jeskai is a favorable matchup, not close to our worst ones (something close to 60/40 match win I'd say). It also depends a lot of the pilot on the other side. Still, not many people know the optimal plays against this deck (even common ones, like when to wasteland bazaar and when to wasteland mana producing lands).

Also, you have to be more specific, as there are lots of differences among survival versions. There are 4 types of viable lists out there.

@miryafa The best strategy against Survival decks is to win outside the combat step. If your deck always or nearly always wins by attacking with creatures you cast you probably don’t have a favorable matchup. Dredge and Oath can both fight in the combat step, but I don’t think either is really favored by much, of at all.

@swiftwarkite2 Yes, I will tomorrow in the afternoon, just not sure what time. But when I do, I will post on the TMD topic for streaming and I guess if you follow you get some kind of notification about it too, if you'd like to.

First Challenge today with Bug Survival List.
0_1545531822928_0a247402-ca45-459a-a4ec-f8366769037d-image.png

Ended up going 5-2 Losing to the mirror @swiftwarkite2 and losing to AtogLord on Dredge. Ran into the dredge match up 3 times and was lucky to come away with at least 2 wins (auto lost first game for all dredge matches).

Dont really know the common boarding strategy for most match ups but ended up siding out something like this
0_1545531772632_e9ba20ff-1ad7-49f0-a35a-8485439989d9-image.png

Ran across an interesting hand and would like input on it.
0_1545531879109_survival keeper..PNG
Game 3 on the draw. Decide to keep but unsure if it was correct. i did end up winning the match but just cause i ended up drawing a bazaar which found me mana sources and allowed me to chain vengevines.

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