How to beat Paradoxical Outcome

@griselbrother said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

Eidolon of Rhetoric

The less card types something has, the more likely it's ability to stay in play, so I'd recommend Rule of Law or Arcane Laboratory over Eidolon of Rhetoric, although if you think the benefit of it being a creature outweighs is detriment, then obviously Eidolon would be a better choice.

Stony Silence is probably the best objective card versus their overall strategy.

Like when facing any combo decks across any format there are two keys to success. One: Disruption and Two: An Efficient Clock.

The top disrupting effects are Stony Silence, Null Rod followed closely by cards like Kambal, Leovold and Spirt of the Labyrinth. Combing these cards with counter magic like FoW, Fluster storm , Pyroblast and mental mistep and adding to the clock with other cards that pressure life totals quickly will result in a strong PO matchup

last edited by IamActuallyLvL1

Manglehorn has proven to be very good vs PO in my Survival deck.

I think discard spells are effective against this deck if you have access to them. Leovold is also a proven stop. The BUG deck has a favorable match up against PO.

I think 1-for-1 discard spells are actually a losing proposition against Outcome because their deck is so dense with threats, and cards that find more threats. Nabbing an Outcome or something early might slow them a turn, but I have not found discard to be particularly effective against the deck.

last edited by revengeanceful

@revengeanceful Discard in general is not going to stop any deck in the meta right now. If you are playing discard spells the idea in this meta is to get information and slow you opponent down 1 or 2 turns then win. It really only works in Storm, and BUG and maybe Grixis depending on the build.

This deck is very different from the one that were winning June 2018. The core of the deck is the same but the evasion is different. Mystic Remora main deck, Night's Whisper and some strategic bounce spells.

The style of how the deck is played has also changed, idea of running out all of the artifact early has changed. I see several players playing into the explosion of a go off.

How do you beat this deck now? Energy Flux is not as good. Stony Silence is good if you have access to it, and Null Rod is not getting it done without some serious pressure.

Is it really just taxing spells now to get past the deck? What the sideboard options? They bring in Karn and power him out, he is hard to deal with.

With Eternal Weekend right around the corner discussing how to beat this deck is very relevant.

How about Back to Basics + Null Rod/Stony Silence, backed by some Hurkyl's and main deck counterspells? They usually run just 1-2 basic lands right? Null Rod is pretty easy to play early on in the game, and B2B isn't too bad to play either.

Paradoxical is pretty easy to beat, if you're willing to play white cards (Stony Silence, Thalia 1.0, Spirit of the Labyrinth) but the problem is that it's impossible to beat Shops with such a build.

@griselbrother The deck has gotten much harder to beat. The main deck bounce is better and they can wait you out. Without pressure the beat can just win with some interesting plays.

@moorebrother1 How did it get harder to beat? Compared to when? I haven't seen that many PO lists that deviate very much from the norm.

@nower1990 said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

@moorebrother1 How did it get harder to beat? Compared to when? I haven't seen that many PO lists that deviate very much from the norm.

Compared to the days when people were just jamming 4x Seat of the Synod and Thoughtcast into their deck, is when.

How about Chains of Mephistophles? Obv not good vs mud/dredge, but seems good versus most of the meta, especially PO. Could a BW aggro deck with X Chains/X Stony Silence/X Bob's/X Thalias/X Kambal be somewhere to start?

@Serracollector Yes I have been thinking about something similar for awhile now. It could be a B/W humans build.

@serracollector said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

How about Chains of Mephistophles? Obv not good vs mud/dredge, but seems good versus most of the meta, especially PO. Could a BW aggro deck with X Chains/X Stony Silence/X Bob's/X Thalias/X Kambal be somewhere to start?

That would be fine if you want to beat PO. But again, you just auto lose to Shops. I realise that's not the question here, but you have to have other matchups in mind as well.

@rat3de Cavern of Souls would make this good. Also thing about In the Eye of Chaos.

@griselbrother The idea that Null Rod or Stony Silence solves the artifact problem is not going to work out the way it used to. These decks and the good pilots that run them expect these cards now.

@moorebrother1 said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

@griselbrother The idea that Null Rod or Stony Silence solves the artifact problem is not going to work out the way it used to. These decks and the good pilots that run them expect these cards now.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. And you're right that the PO decks played now are much more resiliant than the first iterations of the deck. I remember when the deck first came out, people would say "Man, if you just didn't have that turn 1 Stony Silence, I would win", and I would response by saying "No, if you don't win turn 1, I win".

Still, PO is not that hard to beat if you play some sort of hatebear decks packing some combination of Stony Silence, Thalia 1.0, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Gaddock Teeg, Kambal, Sanctum Prelate etc. And the good news is that those cards are also good vs most other decks in the format, but the bad news is that they are horrible against Shops and you're simply not gonna win against Shops no matter what you do.

I'm pretty confident that you could build a hatebear style deck that has a favorable matchup against the field except for against Shops (and Eldrazi but that deck has almost disappeared now) where you'll have like 25%.

last edited by Griselbrother

Don't things like Stony Silence and Knight of Reliquary and Mayor of Averbrook all give good advantage vs MUD as well tho? If your splashing green that is. Not to mention abrupt Decay, swords to plow, path to exile, assassin's trophy, fragmentize, and nature's claim all out the board or maindeck?

I think that if you build your sideboard correctly, you could probably bring your shops match-up to something close to at least 50%. In B/W you Stony Silence, lots of artifact removal like Disenchant/Fragmentize, creature removal like Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile, and a new card which I think could really help is Infernal Reckoning. Then to top it all off you could play something like Serenity in the SB to blow up their board, allowing you to pressure them pretty heavily. Then there are all kinds of strange cards like Soltari Visionairy and Aura of Silence. Then if you decide to go G/W you have a whole other suit of options along with R/W.

last edited by Rat3dE
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