How to beat Paradoxical Outcome

@moorebrother1 How did it get harder to beat? Compared to when? I haven't seen that many PO lists that deviate very much from the norm.

@nower1990 said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

@moorebrother1 How did it get harder to beat? Compared to when? I haven't seen that many PO lists that deviate very much from the norm.

Compared to the days when people were just jamming 4x Seat of the Synod and Thoughtcast into their deck, is when.

How about Chains of Mephistophles? Obv not good vs mud/dredge, but seems good versus most of the meta, especially PO. Could a BW aggro deck with X Chains/X Stony Silence/X Bob's/X Thalias/X Kambal be somewhere to start?

@Serracollector Yes I have been thinking about something similar for awhile now. It could be a B/W humans build.

@serracollector said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

How about Chains of Mephistophles? Obv not good vs mud/dredge, but seems good versus most of the meta, especially PO. Could a BW aggro deck with X Chains/X Stony Silence/X Bob's/X Thalias/X Kambal be somewhere to start?

That would be fine if you want to beat PO. But again, you just auto lose to Shops. I realise that's not the question here, but you have to have other matchups in mind as well.

@rat3de Cavern of Souls would make this good. Also thing about In the Eye of Chaos.

@griselbrother The idea that Null Rod or Stony Silence solves the artifact problem is not going to work out the way it used to. These decks and the good pilots that run them expect these cards now.

@moorebrother1 said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

@griselbrother The idea that Null Rod or Stony Silence solves the artifact problem is not going to work out the way it used to. These decks and the good pilots that run them expect these cards now.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. And you're right that the PO decks played now are much more resiliant than the first iterations of the deck. I remember when the deck first came out, people would say "Man, if you just didn't have that turn 1 Stony Silence, I would win", and I would response by saying "No, if you don't win turn 1, I win".

Still, PO is not that hard to beat if you play some sort of hatebear decks packing some combination of Stony Silence, Thalia 1.0, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Gaddock Teeg, Kambal, Sanctum Prelate etc. And the good news is that those cards are also good vs most other decks in the format, but the bad news is that they are horrible against Shops and you're simply not gonna win against Shops no matter what you do.

I'm pretty confident that you could build a hatebear style deck that has a favorable matchup against the field except for against Shops (and Eldrazi but that deck has almost disappeared now) where you'll have like 25%.

last edited by Griselbrother

Don't things like Stony Silence and Knight of Reliquary and Mayor of Averbrook all give good advantage vs MUD as well tho? If your splashing green that is. Not to mention abrupt Decay, swords to plow, path to exile, assassin's trophy, fragmentize, and nature's claim all out the board or maindeck?

I think that if you build your sideboard correctly, you could probably bring your shops match-up to something close to at least 50%. In B/W you Stony Silence, lots of artifact removal like Disenchant/Fragmentize, creature removal like Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile, and a new card which I think could really help is Infernal Reckoning. Then to top it all off you could play something like Serenity in the SB to blow up their board, allowing you to pressure them pretty heavily. Then there are all kinds of strange cards like Soltari Visionairy and Aura of Silence. Then if you decide to go G/W you have a whole other suit of options along with R/W.

last edited by Rat3dE

@serracollector said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

Don't things like Stony Silence and Knight of Reliquary and Mayor of Averbrook all give good advantage vs MUD as well tho? If your splashing green that is. Not to mention abrupt Decay, swords to plow, path to exile, assassin's trophy, fragmentize, and nature's claim all out the board or maindeck?

They do (except for Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy as they're too slow), and believe me I've tried all of that and much more. I've had builds that brought in 15 cards against Shops post-board, and games 2 and 3 are still not favorable. I've played 4 Serenity and 4 Seeds of Innocence post-board and games 2 and 3 are still not favorable.

The Shops matchup was much better when Lodestone Golem was unrestricted.

Anyway, we're probably getting a bit off topic here, so perhaps we should save this discussion for another thread?

last edited by Griselbrother

I still feel like the Bant Survival deck that won Asia Vintage Champs, perhaps with a few tweaks, strikes the right balance of attacking PO without sacrificing other matchups too much. Having access to five Stony/Rod after sideboard along with Chalice, Thalia, and a fast clock means the deck is well prepared for that matchup and still has game against the other decks in the format.

What's wrong with Energy Flux? Seems like it should be decent still.

@dr-j As someone who plays PO, if I think you are just going to blow up all of my artifacts and you do not have an taxing effecting on the board like Thalia, then I will just hold onto my mana until I need to go off. This strategy works way better than you think.

The survival deck puts a threat on the board and taxes just like shops. If that case I will choose to race you and I have roughly a 50/50 shot in a race.

@griselbrother The first part of this is true (the cards you named), but the second part is not. White can easily beat shops. White can still use stony, and it has fragmentize, disenchant, serenity, and other cards that I'm not ready to share yet, as it's my hot anti-shops tech. 😉

Another white ace vs PO is Rule of Law. They can't storm shit with that out, they don't run many, if any, counters to stop your stuff, and a mentor gets REAL slow at 1 spell a turn.

@thewhitedragon69 They have Tinker and a bunch of Tutors. I don't think they're going to be as bothered by Rule of Law as other storm decks. Once they have Blightsteel Colossus out it's going to be pretty hard to get rid of it as White, since they run many many counterspells. IMO Tendrils would not be the main win condition against taxing decks.

Serenity is also not good. They can just cast PO, Hurkyl's, or flashback either with Snapcaster before Serenity goes off. And chances are, if you are at a point where you want to blow up all of their artifacts, they have a lot of them in play. If they have a lot of artifacts in play, they are likely ready to cast PO.

last edited by Nower1990

@nower1990 Serenity is the anti-shop tech, not anti-PO. My white tech is good vs BSC and shops. The fact that any deck can jam 4 missteps means you can also path/plow BSC and have just as much chance of removing it. There's also things like forsake the worldly. Many chalk that card off as a 3 mana disenchant, but it exiles and also cycles. It's NEVER dead, and can do some neat top-deck-tutor -> cycle tricks later game.

My point being, white has PLENTY of tools to handle PO and other blue menaces as well as shops and dredge. Problem is, nobody on the VSL is playing such a deck online...so that means nobody will try it or think it's viable to do so.

@thewhitedragon69 I thought you were talking about those cards in relation to PO. I agree with you that there are many ways to deal with PO. As much as I like watching VSL every now and then, many decks featured there are not ideal for dealing with various decks that you will come across in a less limited setting than VSL.

PO is not as difficult to deal with as some people here make it seem. Traditional artifact based blue hate like Thorns and Sphere isn't going to do much, but it is often weak to creature and enchantment based hate. PO decks usually run maybe 1-2 Repeal, 1-2 Fragmentize, and a single Engineered Explosives. Players who are at least decent at playing their white decks aren't going to have a huge problem with those. Tinker and Mentor are probably most difficult to deal with, but as long as one plays their hate cards at the right time, instead of dumping them all in one go, they're probably not that bad to deal with either. This is all assuming that PO doesn't just win T1.

last edited by Nower1990

@nower1990 That is a problem...you can sometimes just draw 7 cards and lose on the die roll.
For this reason, I think even a white-based deck needs to cheat and add 4x misstep. You also have another white answer against the storm kill - leyline of sanctity. That card is better in other formats, but it stops oath too, so there are worse cards to run.
Outside of that, the only way to NOT die on turn 1 is FoW. Not even shops, dredge, or anything else can deal with that. PO can even lotus out a mentor, dump moxen, tolarian, PO, and time walk and go nuts again...or tinker/time walk...so you lose on "turn 1" anyway. Sometimes they just have the nuts and you can't do anything.

edit - I suppose there's also mindbreak trap. Cheating on being "white" again, but a white deck can cast it vs PO.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69 said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

@nower1990 That is a problem...you can sometimes just draw 7 cards and lose on the die roll.
For this reason, I think even a white-based deck needs to cheat and add 4x misstep. You also have another white answer against the storm kill - leyline of sanctity. That card is better in other formats, but it stops oath too, so there are worse cards to run.
Outside of that, the only way to NOT die on turn 1 is FoW. Not even shops, dredge, or anything else can deal with that. PO can even lotus out a mentor, dump moxen, tolarian, PO, and time walk and go nuts again...or tinker/time walk...so you lose on "turn 1" anyway. Sometimes they just have the nuts and you can't do anything.

edit - I suppose there's also mindbreak trap. Cheating on being "white" again, but a white deck can cast it vs PO.

Yeah, actually I think Leyline of Sanctity would be pretty good for MUD right now. I don't like it in White builds however.

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