How to beat Paradoxical Outcome

@nower1990 Yeah, I definitely don't think Leyline is a good card to run in Vintage. It's great in Modern, but not Vintage. I was just listing it as a white answer against turn 1 kills. It does have utility vs oath, and it also stops hurkylls if you are on null rods in addition to stony, but those are fringe uses.
Missteps are more useful in general and help dodge T1 kills at times. Mindbreak may only work once, but you are SBing it in G2, so if it works once, that's all you need. Then they also play in fear of it maybe in G3 when you maybe have it or maybe side it back out.
T1 kills aren't all THAT common, but PO can certainly pull it off and not with difficulty. I've lost plenty of times with a G1 on the draw where I drew 7 and died, won G2, then drew 7 and died on G3. PO can just be nuts like that.
Stony, Thalia, Rule, etc. are certainly the better white cards to use in general and will be great turns 2 and beyond. They just won't help turn 1 when you're on the draw.

Why isn't Chains of Mephistopheles being used more often? That's one scary sideboard card against blue decks. Probably hoses PO more than any other blue deck.

@nower1990 It doesn't "do" anything and there aren't a ton of decks that would want to suffer that effect themselves.

I guess think about the best deck Chains could go in, and then wonder from there if that deck would really be any good.

@aeonsovarius I get what you mean, but wouldn't Chalice 'do' anything either in a similar way? A creature-centric deck that splashes black could use it without much impact to itself. It also happens to be well costed and an enchantment, which tends to be harder to remove.

@nower1990 i've played chains in the SB of Survival before. It was good when it landed. It does mess with your own bazaars, however. Definitely a good card that might not have a real home.

@kaluma I opened 2 Liliana of the Veil in my chests the other week when I got second in the challenge and brewed up a Bgw “Pox” style deck (doesn’t haven’t any actual Pox or Smallpox) with DRS, Bob, Necro, Chains, Trophy, Wasteland, Stony, Null Rod, etc., haven’t actually played any games with it yet though.

@wfain That sounds sweet. Let us know how it does!

@nower1990 I'm not saying there is no hope, but chalice at least counters spells and shuts people out, Null Rod does as well. I just imagine there are cases where i might resolve a Ponder with Chains on the field anyway. But i am not an expert.

I'm not 100% on this. But I think if chains was really worth using Spirit of the labyrinth would see more play in hate bear lists.

last edited by John Cox

@john-cox said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

I'm not 100% on this. But I think if chains was really worth using Spirit of the labyrinth would see more play in hate bear lists.

Almost all hatebears decks do play Spirit of the Labyrinth these days. Even quite a few Eldrazi lists run it (competing with Glowrider and Sphere of Resistance in the flex spot that used to be Thorn of Amethyst).

Chains of Mephistopheles might be used to great effect with decks that mainly use "take the card into your hand" type of cards. Necropotence, black tutors and Dark Confidant are the big ones that come to mind. There are also blue cards like DTT, Fact or Fiction, and Gifts Ungiven that do this. There might be a new deck that might be able to use these ideas functionally, but I'm not sure if it can be well-rounded enough to handle Eldrazi or Shops lists as well, or not be suboptimal.

last edited by Nower1990

I recorded with U/R and played against PO four times in the league for anyone interested. I'm sorry about the sound at some points, it is fixed for future videos 🙂

The real question is not how creature oriented control (aka hatebears, a name I do not like btw...) beat PO decks. Since the meta is now Bazaar, Workshop and Blue (PO or non PO does not matter, they all need to draw plenty of cards to win) it seems very hard to fight these decks with classical strategies. And with this I mean 4x Hatebear A, 4x Hatebear B, 3x Stony, 4x Removal C, ...

My judgement is that right card is Hurkyl's Recall and not Stony Silence. You just run your own power and acceleration and bust out the most powerful permanent based creature disruption and back it up with a healthy combination of Mental Misteps, Mindbreak Traps, REB, ... You also run tutors and deck manipulation (top, dack, dt, ...).

A Hurkyl's Recall plan will also work well with a singleton Chalice of the Void + Sphere effects against PO. Workshop tend to take a lot of damage if their explosive start was based on Mana Crypt and Ancient Tombs. Also note that after a mass bounce, your Mindbreak Trap is most likely going to be active, even against Workshop.

I was on a long break, just returned like a couple weeks ago, but the Oath of Ghouls 5C Humans deck from 2015-2016 was the first time I switched from a classical way of building aggro control based on mana denial (wastelands, stony) to a more soft lock approach without wastelands and stony (which is sometimes in the SB at best), but with my own broken stuff basically. Losing a Thalia is actually kinda the plan, because all you want is time to set up a more stronger position with Kambal and spells that disrupt the PO.

All this being said, with the recent emergence of Bazaar Survival, not even Hurkyl's Recall seems like a plan anymore. And do not forget Oath and Bazaar Dredge lurking around. So yea... hard times 🙂

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