[M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur



  • Shops is the tempo/prison deck you're imagining the format is missing. Mishra's Workshop and Ancient Tomb are very obviously what you need to have to facilitate playing 30 creatures.

    They can push non-artifact creatures ad infinitum, if the broken mana's not there, they're all just marginal sidegrades over each other and you can't get them into play fast enough. Archetype needs at least Caverns 5-8. The current Survival decks are good evidence of this; they're using Bazaar as mana accelerant broken enough to facilitate a hatebear gameplan. No accident the most successful Thalia decks of late use either Ancient Tomb/Eldrazi Temple or Bazaar of Baghdad.



  • Against shops this creature seems to me to be a very weak Null Rod: it doesn't actually stop any of their activated abilities (they still have the option to let you draw your deck while killing you with Ballista), and sports a much more awkward casting cost.



  • Re: Utility creatures

    What I meant when I said this is a creature that is not a combo piece, a finisher, a sideboard silver bullet, or a core deck component. Rather a creature that has a useful but not strategy central ability, typically this is a value engine which I certainly think this fits the criteria of.

    Like, even though deathrite shaman does have a lot of utility, decks that run it are usually running it as a mana dork is central to the strategy, rather than needing lifegain or exile ability.

    There is simply no deck I can think of where this could be run as a core component because it relies too much on what your opponent is doing, but its also not strong enough out of the board to merit a sideboard slot.

    I know its not the most apt comparison, but in modern I run living end and I would consider shriekmaw in this camp. The deck does not need shriekmaw, it can play perfectly well without it, but it provides enough utility in enough matches that it merits inclusion when the meta calls for it.



  • @protoaddct said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    Re: Utility creatures

    What I meant when I said this is a creature that is not a combo piece, a finisher, a sideboard silver bullet, or a core deck component. Rather a creature that has a useful but not strategy central ability, typically this is a value engine which I certainly think this fits the criteria of.

    I would certainly classify Snapcaster Mage a utility creature under this definition then?



  • @hrishi snapcaster is absolutely a finisher in a number of decks, sometimes the only creature the list can attack with.

    I cannot imagine a deck that wants to finish the gane with a 2/5 3 cmc green creature with an ability dependent on the opponents build.



  • @protoaddct Its not really a "finisher". Its a hate "bear" that neutralizes a lot of what Shops wants to do, and has enough utility in other MUs to be potentially MD playable.



  • @evouga I would think this card would be very good against shops, assuming there are any other bullets that kill artifacts. For example, this with some number of Grudges seems like a rough go for shops. Sure there are going to be busted Shops draws that win, but in any game that goes more than a few turns, this thing is going to be a big problem.



  • @vaughnbros said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    @protoaddct Its not really a "finisher". Its a hate "bear" that neutralizes a lot of what Shops wants to do, and has enough utility in other MUs to be potentially MD playable.

    The differences here are really innumerable though

    • larger CMC
    • Needs 2 Green mana
    • Not pitch-able to FOW
    • Proactive instead of reactive (on the stack)
    • Lack of flash (no surprise blocking which is sometimes relevant)
    • Completely reliant on what your opponent plays

    The cost of utility is often really the thing that determines utility. There are countless utility creatures that simply cost to much for the ability. For instance, Ash Zealot is a really good card that sees no play because besides needing 2 red mana, lacking flash means its not a proper answer to some of the cards you would want it against like Yawgs will. Based on CMC and spread of abilities its actually good in theory, but in practice it does not pan out. If the card had flash instead of haste or First strike, or even if it was 1R, it may have seen play. I think this falls into that camp, at least in the vintage context. I suspect in formats where a fair value deck like jund or bant see play, this card will get consideration. I would far rather land this turn 2 on the play in modern than a Knight of the reliquary for instance.



  • While I'm glad they are pushing limits with this P/T, I think in 80% of matchups I'd rather have a Heartwood Storyteller for the same mana cost.



  • Workshop decks doesnt care if opponent draws cards, it's the board state that matters in that matchup, which they usually outplay you fast by state effects you cant use drawn cards through spheres anyway.

    Id compare this to Harsh mentor, which failed to make play.



  • @protoaddct

    Snapcaster is also awful in the Shops MU. I'm not sure why you are comparing them directly as they couldn't be more different in terms of cards, except that they could fall under the "utility creature" scope.

    @YakuzaXRock

    There are actually numerous decks that want to draw cards against shops. Big mana decks, hate bears, ect. that want cards against Shops.



  • @vaughnbros said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    @protoaddct
    Snapcaster is also awful in the Shops MU. I'm not sure why you are comparing them directly as they couldn't be more different in terms of cards, except that they could fall under the "utility creature" scope.

    Someone else made the comparison, not me. Im just pointing out the differences as to why its not comparable, but once again I am not sure I would ever classify Snapcaster as a utility creature considering the role it plans in the decks it is included in.



  • @vaughnbros
    Yeah some defense deck where this biggie just blocks down I guess. But i dont see it happening



  • @yakuzaxrock said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    Workshop decks doesnt care if opponent draws cards, it's the board state that matters in that matchup, which they usually outplay you fast by state effects you cant use drawn cards through spheres anyway.

    Id compare this to Harsh mentor, which failed to make play.

    Except this slows down shops combat phase if you land it turn 1 or 2 against them. Harsh Mentor didn't do that. Its revoker proof card draw. Even if they try to do some tricks to move counters to pump a creature, you'll draw 2-3 cards and stop at least 1-2 turns worth of damage to the face.

    I think because of the 1GG rather than 2G cost, this still doesn't see play. But at 2G I think this would get some more attention.



  • @wagner said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    While I'm glad they are pushing limits with this P/T, I think in 80% of matchups I'd rather have a Heartwood Storyteller for the same mana cost.

    You think if Hearty Woody was a 2/5 he'd get played?



  • @yakuzaxrock said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    Workshop decks doesnt care if opponent draws cards, it's the board state that matters in that matchup, which they usually outplay you fast by state effects you cant use drawn cards through spheres anyway.

    Id compare this to Harsh mentor, which failed to make play.

    I disagree. A creature deck like a junk deck or hatebear deck absolutely wants to draw cards. Notably they want to make a land drop every turn and draw Wastelands, Ghost Quarters and Plows.


 

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