[M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master



  • I really love this guys synergy with Divining Top. Like a free Sylvan every turn. Maybe a Controllish Midrange Blue deck with Master of Etherium, Antiquities of War, and Karn? Could also include the 3 drop legendary that poops out thopters when you cast artifacts. PO can make a lot of Thopter Tokens that buff annd are buffed by Master.



  • @evouga said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    For the exact same mana cost, the OG Tezzeret wins the game on your next turn...

    alt text

    @13nova said in [DOM] Teferi, Hero of Dominaria:

    There's a 5 mana planeswalker that literally just wins the game in this format if it survives a turn.

    This card is good in Standard. That's it.



  • Amusing, though as you well know, comparing new printings to superior existing options is a sound evaluation strategy regardless of whether it was incorrectly applied in the case of Teferi.


  • TMD Supporter

    Drawing three cards every turn is a game winning effect for a blue deck. I think this card is playable, even though the argument for Seeker makes sense. Personally I don't like playing a bunch of cards like Time Vault and Voltaic Key so I would never play Seeker anymore. The token generating walkers have been getting some love in Vintage recently, so why not? Worse case, its netting the same as JTMS.



  • @evouga said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    Amusing, though as you well know, comparing new printings to superior existing options is a sound evaluation strategy regardless of whether it was incorrectly applied in the case of Teferi.

    I disagree. I think it is a very poor method of card evaluation and has a horrible track record. I almost never use it and would encourage anyone looking to get better at Magic to refrain from using it. You can, and should, make an argument for or against a card's playability without using comparisons in 99% of cases.



  • Really like this walker a whole lotta bunch. The "metalcraft" condition is easily attained and will win the game in short order (while avoiding much of the "hate" which makes 1.0 a dicey proposition).



  • Pump the breaks please. We need to walk this discussion way back. Firstly. OG Tezz does not "win you the game." It lets you search for and put into play Time Vault. It also lets you untap Time Vault. A lot of the time that is game winning, sometimes its not. But OG Tezz absolutely does not say "win the game" on the card, so we should stop evaluating the comparison as if it does.

    Instead, lets look at this card for what it is. It is a 5 mana planeswalker with some pretty strong abilities. Certainly these abilities are at least strong enough to take a look at where it might fit in vintage. On it's face, I think we can limit this thing's potential to play in a big mana blue deck. It's casting cost is way to big to go in Xerox, and way to blue to go in much else. Oath? Mayyyybeeee. I'm lookin' at you Brian Kelly. But I personally doubt it. I mean, is it really better than, I can't believe I'm saying this, Arlin Kord? It for sure isn't better than Jace in Oath, since Jace can put back creatures on the top of your deck from your hand.

    So within the big-blue shell, what does it do? It basically draws a ton of cards. It potentially draws more cards than Jace, which is saying something. But I personally don't think it is better than either of Jace, Dack, or Teferi. That last one being what I think might be the best comparison, and the card that squeezes this guy out of that deck. Essentially, the question is whether you win more in big blue by playing this guy over Teferi. That is what I doubt.

    Teferi's "defend himself" ability is far stronger than making a thopter. And I'm not convinced that his draw ability is worse. Teferi always draws 1 card and always untaps 2 lands. This guy always draws 1 and sometimes draws a second card... To me that is a coin flip. If Teferi gets going, you win. If this Tezz gets going, you win. So I suppose the question turns on which one gets going more often. That has got to be Teferi… right? Because he essentially costs 3 and because he can remove permanents from the board, as opposed to making thopters.

    I doubt it's better than Jace, because... come on. And I doubt he's better than Dack for the same reason. 3 mana vs 5 mana is a mile's difference.

    So unless I'm missing something, this Tezz is limited to big blue style control, where he gets squished out by preexisting and superior walkers. I can't really reckon that one wouldn't just win more often by cutting this guy for an extra Dack, Jace, Teferi… or some utility card.



  • @chubbyrain said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @evouga said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    Amusing, though as you well know, comparing new printings to superior existing options is a sound evaluation strategy regardless of whether it was incorrectly applied in the case of Teferi.

    I disagree. I think it is a very poor method of card evaluation and has a horrible track record. I almost never use it and would encourage anyone looking to get better at Magic to refrain from using it. You can, and should, make an argument for or against a card's playability without using comparisons in 99% of cases.

    While I am inclined to agree that we miss the mark a lot by comparing cards, I think it is valid in this case. I think our problem with comparisons is that often we make shallow and superficial ones where the cards are not really vying for the same slot, however this one seems to be. There are multiple other blue and colorless walkers of the same mana cost or less that do similar things to this.

    • Jace, Architect of Thought can draw you 2 cards a turn, or one useable one, plus game ending ultimate for 1 less mana, sees no play
    • Jace, TMS costs 4, can in effect draw you 3 cards a turn in the right shell, protect itself, Screw with your opponent, win the game on ultimate
    • Tamiyo, the Moon Sage can draw multiple cards, can protect itself, ultimate can be a combo win on the spot
    • Tezzeret the Seeker, can win the game in one turn, tutors and casts a card for you, game ending ultimate
    • Karn draws cards, makes big dudes that get bigger, costs less and easier mana

    Thats not even considering the off color or multi color walkers. Hell I'm noit even sure if I am playing a heavy artifact acceleration blue deck I wouldn't want Agent of Bolas instead, which also draws a card and can win the game 1 turn after for one less mana.

    But even taking it just on its merits alone, 5 mana is a lot of mana in vintage for something that is not a very rapid win. Paying 5 mana and +1ing this dude to make a thopter is a really bad place to be, so I have to assume you want to drop this guy and 0 him every single time, which means that he is also weak to Null rod, artifact hate, etc, and also likely never using his ultimate unless the game goes crazy long, which really it should not if you are getting +2 cards ever game. I think that he is likely just shy of being strong enough, but I just don't see it.



  • First of all, this thread is loaded with beautiful quotes, so props to the below:

    @cutlex said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @evouga said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    I'm extremely hard-pressed to think of any situation where I'd rather draw two cards than win the game.

    You might be in the minority of Vintage players.

    and

    @topical_island said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    I mean, is it really better than, I can't believe I'm saying this, Arlin Kord?

    It's significantly worse than Arlinn Kord in Oath of Druids and probably in a vacuum as well. It's bad enough giving a Spirit token and paying 3 to have Dack Fayden Pyroblasted on the stack, but this unwieldy thing is just asking for too much of a blowout.

    Tezzeret, Artifice Master has some serious problems that need to be called to light. First, it's not going to be drawing two cards a turn reliably. You probably can't Lotus it out early on and have three artifacts in play unless it's Christmas in Pittsburgh. Secondly, this seems abominable against Shops, especially compared to Arlinn Kord but also to Jace and Dack. The Thopter can't trade with most attackers while Arlinn's Wolf trades with around half of them. And it only takes one shoot from a Ballista to remove it.

    I do think it's valuable to compare new cards to existing options, contrary to the stated position of ChubbyRain above. He is a good apprentice but notorious for insubordination. It's reasonable to compare and contrast Anticipate with Impulse, for instance.

    This card is not unplayable; provided you get to 5 mana and are relatively unimpeded, it will do very cool things. There might even be a forthcoming idiosyncratic shell that can twist itself into design contortions that make this card "correct" in the slot. I would find it pretty exciting at 2UU. At 5 mana, we have to ask ourselves "why am I putting this into play instead of Future Sight?" It reminds me of Teferi in the sense, that sure, the card is powerful but there's a world of a difference between 4 and 5 mana. Winning with Teferi is eerily similar to the days where I piloted Sylvan Mentor with all of its unrestrcted Gushes, Probes, and so forth; the deck was so overpowered, I could choose whatever otherwise out-of-place win-cons I wanted to seal the deal and still win major events. Narset? Sure. Dragonlords Ojutai and Dromoka instead of Mentor #2 and #3? Why not. Those were fun times. I'm not sure we have such luxuries today.

    I should also add that I'm a fan of enthusiastic posts discussing new cards. I don't share the sentiment that it's embarrassing to enjoy musing over novel possibilities and that such discussions are inherently ridiculous. The recent troll post I felt was lighthearted enough that I added a jubilant comment. Discussion of why cards are unplayable is just as useful as discussing why they are unplayable. Never stop learning.



  • @brianpk80 said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    I should also add that I'm a fan of enthusiastic posts discussing new cards. I don't share the sentiment that it's embarrassing to enjoy musing over novel possibilities and that such discussions are inherently ridiculous. The recent troll post I felt was lighthearted enough that I added a jubilant comment. Discussion of why cards are unplayable is just as useful as discussing why they are unplayable. Never stop learning.

    It was meant to be lighthearted and I deleted it when it was clear at least one infrequent poster thought it missed the mark. While enthusiasm is good, posts concerned solely with card names or card art are little more than spam. Posts with one sentence comparisons add almost nothing - you should at least take the time to establish why you think a card is comparable. And while there is a role for comparisons, the problem is that inappropriate comparisons derail the conversation into discussing the roles of the card used for comparison. Many of these posts and those in the Teferi thread are actually focused on why Tezzeret The Seeker isn't great right now, which isn't the point of a spoiler thread.

    So, @Topical_Island, @Protoaddct , @brianpk80 , thank you for taking the time to write substantive posts. @Protoaddct I think you are missing the mark with most of you comparisons, falling into the same pitfall you've identified for others. The only Walker you've listed whose primary role is drawing cards is really JTMS. The other walkers you've mentioned share superficial characteristics and are improper comparisons.



  • @chubbyrain Your post is better in this meta than above average Julia Child episode.



  • I have read through this thread a few times and the discussion is very interesting. I have read this card and re-read this card. As someone who still plays Tezzeret, the Seeker. These cards cannot really be compared against each other.

    I play Tezzeret, the Seeker in decks that run Time Vault, and Yawmoth's Will and I see Tezzeret, Artifice Master only fitting into a LandStill style of deck or maybe a Blue Moon. These styles of decks and styles of play are diametrically opposed to one another.

    I like this card on it's face and I like Teferi, Hero of Dominaria but I am all in on combo right now so these cards do not appeal to my current play style.

    If I were inclined to play a big blue style of deck then I would seriously consider this card over Terferi and even over Jace, the Mind Sculptor and there are a lot of reasons why. If you are playing a big blue deck then you need a clock to end the game. Putting 2 or 3 1/1 flyers is often enough and JTMS adds a clock but is much more venerable because you have to keep doing the fate seal, whereas Tezzeret can create 3 thopters then just draw cards. It depends on how you view the meta-game as to which is better.

    The comparisons to other planeswalkers do offer insight into how you would rank planeswalkers but does not focus on why you would play them. Dack Fayden is often considered the best planeswalker in Vintage but I think he is somewhat overrated. Don't get me wrong, he is great in the meta for his cost but you are forgoing other cards to play him and for a Jeskai deck that may be worth it but for a big blue deck Dack is awful.

    I overall like this card and if I were on control right now, I would seriously consider playing this card as a 1 or 2 in a big blue shell.



  • @moorebrother1 Other than the name of the card (which inherently draws comparison) they have the same mana cost and both benefit from large amounts of artifacts in your deck, and if I'm going to run an artifact heavy version of Landstill, I still want Tezzeret the Seeker. He can find Crucible, EE (at 0), Top, Lotus (for Drain back online). He untaps my Mishra's factories after an attack. He can also sets up a win condition much quicker by fetching artifacts. Original Tezz might be the most underrated planeswalker in all of Vintage since so many people just fetch Time Vault with him and don't see the other aspects of the card. Compared to this Tezzeret, its really no contest in so many Vintage decks. It has no immediate impact on the board, his draw ability will almost never get you 2 cards in landstill, and his ultimate is weak.



  • @vaughnbros I get your point and when I play the Seeker, I often evaluate the board state to see if doing a plus and then attacking the next turn will win me the game. My point about the style of play is important. If the board is clear or I feel that it is controlled and tap down 5 to cast this card then I am going to pump out 2 or 3 thopters to put pressure on my opponent then net the gain of card draw.

    When I have played JTMS, it is normal to brainstorm for a few turns then start to fate seal once you have enough control in your hand. Terferi plays similar to JTMS except slightly better because you draw one and keep mana open then you can pump into his ultimate.

    All of these are slow.

    You are looking at taking 8 turns to win with JTMS, Teferi does not "win" the game but makes it impossible for your opponent to win. While Tezzeret creates a 8 turn clock assuming your opponent is at 18 and you make 3 thopters, you can shorten the clock by making more thopters and you can play Moat. This was the point I was trying to make. I am assuming that the deck you are playing is not artifact heavy so the Seeker would not add as much value.



  • I really think saying that you cannot compare walkers is wrong. You cannot compare all walkers, but Tezz vs other Tezz is at least in the same ball park, and tezz vs Jace is still a lot closer than Tezz vs Lightning bolt or something. It's like saying you cannot compare mox ruby to mox pearl because red uses artifacts better and needs more mana. All cards are contextual and all decks are built on synergies, but even saying that on the surface these 2 cards have a lot in common.

    Both are mono blue
    Both cost the same amount
    Both are above bolt range for loyalty
    Both want to be in a deck with artifacts, specifically ramp artifacts since they help play this card earlier.
    Both can provide some form of card advantage

    It is rare with a walker that you build a deck around it or that it's just strong enough to be plopped into a deck because of power alone. There needs to be some level of synergy and power on both ends for it to merit inclusion into your 75. I think we will likely find that both these tezzes end up in decks that have a lot more in common than not. Ill go out on a limb here and say that every deck running either of these cards is going to have

    Ancestral
    Timewalk
    4x Force of will
    Xx Mental Misstep
    Black lotus
    5+ x Moxen
    Sol ring
    Tinkerer
    Yadda yadda yadda

    The difference I really see in this is original tezz does lend itself more to combo kill with a backup of control features, where as this tezz lends itself to control with a possible combo at the end.

    I do not think they are light years apart, and the heuristics make sense in the context of this card getting played.



  • @chubbyrain said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @evouga said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    Amusing, though as you well know, comparing new printings to superior existing options is a sound evaluation strategy regardless of whether it was incorrectly applied in the case of Teferi.

    I disagree. I think it is a very poor method of card evaluation and has a horrible track record. I almost never use it and would encourage anyone looking to get better at Magic to refrain from using it.

    I suspect that assessment is Von Restorff bias, and doesn't hold up to statistical scrutiny.

    Dramatic misevaluation (JtMS, e.g.) are remembered, but for every such case, there are many more cards like Broken Bond, Mastermind's Acquisition, Silent Gravestone, Zacama, Primal Calamity, etc. that were rightly dismissed for being outclasses in their roles by existing printings, and then forgotten.



  • Not sure I understand the allure of this card if you aren't artifact heavy. Its best ability is by far its 0 when you have metalcraft. While reliably only drawing 1, you are now in the Jace, Teferi, Dack, ect. zone as its draw is inferior to all those walkers and its secondary ability of a 1/1 flier is worse than those of Jace/Dack/Teferi/ect. His ultimate also seems much worse than Jace/Teferi to me. So he's worse on basically every ability unless you have metalcraft.

    Being in the artifact heavy scope, all the Tezz's are a fair comparison. He is the artifact walker (along with Daretti). Tezz 1.0 is the best, but lets not forget Tezz 2.0 saw significant play and was great in more controlling lists. The other two Tezz's dont seem good to me as one has no CA engine and the other is 6 mana. Perhaps there is a list that wants ALL the Tezz's (and maybe some Daretti's). But to me, he seems like 3rd best in the Tezz rankings with his ultimate / secondary ability being so much worse than 1.0 and 2.0.



  • Edited because some apparently found my post offensive or demeaning which certainly wasn't my intention. My apologies.



  • @griselbrother As was noted by evouga, there is serious recall bias on negative evals. We can find numerous cards that were passed over or called sideboard cards that only ever became that.



  • @evouga I mean, if your argument is that the majority of new cards won't see play, I would agree with that. However, you hardly need to refer to other cards to prove that. Mastermind's Acquisition is not unplayable because Demonic Tutor exists. Silent Gravestone is not unplayable because Grafdigger's Cage exists. Those cards are simply not good enough for Vintage - they don't do enough, or the right thing, for the mana cost.

    The vast majority of cards are not functional equivalents of other cards. Comparisons are really only useful when the cards being compared are incredibly similar in functionality, i.e. Broken Bond to Nature's Claim. They are not useful when cards are functionally dissimilar. Comparing this card to either previous Tezzeret ignores the function and focuses on superficial characteristics. It is intellectually lazy and misses the mark, regardless of whether this Tezzeret sees play or not.

    If you look at the previous comparisons people have made with Jace, the Mind Sculpter vs Brainstorm; Teferi vs Tezzeret, Saheeli Rai vs Dack; Jace, Vryn's Prodigy vs...Merfolk Looter; etc, you see a pattern of dissimilarity between the cards' functionalty. JtMS is not a cantrip like Brainstorm, it is an incredibly potent card advantage engine, a decent win condition, and a poor removal spell. Teferi is a powerful removal spell, a good card advantage engine, and a very slow win condition by itself - Tezzeret the Seeker is almost purely a win condition. Saheeli Rai is a combo piece (aka the Blue Bridge Below). Dack is a card selection (advantage with Gush/Delve spells) engine and potent artifact removal.

    My point and frustration with comparisons is that people are too ready to leap to comparisons without actually evaluating the functional role of the card being discussed. I find this leads to a lot of bad comparisons and bad comparisons derail threads, as now we end up talking about why "Tezzeret 3.0 =/= Tezzeret 1.0", not "How can Tezzeret 3.0 be used and is that good enough for a Vintage deck?". So, yes, there is some role for comparisons in card evaluation. However, most people are terrible at these comparisons, make poor comparisons, and lead threads on tangents. I would prefer people make arguments either without comparisons, or arguments based on functionality with comparisons augmenting the conclusions rather than serving as a shortcut for actually evaluating cards. That way, even if the arguments are wrong or illogical or whatever, the discussion is still centered on the topic of the thread.

    Does that make sense?


 

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