[M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master



  • @evouga said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @chubbyrain said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    Comparing this card to either previous Tezzeret ignores the function and focuses on superficial characteristics.

    On the contrary, I've already argued that, in my opinion, Artifice Master serves
    (1) very similar roles
    (2) in the same shells
    (3) poorly
    as The Seeker. It has since been pointed out to me that Artifice Master might be a key ingredient in a Null Rod-based blue control deck. I acknowledge the possibility, remain quite skeptical, and will be the first to eat crow if I'm wrong.

    I couldn't disagree more. This card is a pure card advantage engine - you never want to use any other mode than the 0 unless in desperation. While that might translate into winning the game in some other way, it's not a primary win condition like Tezz.



  • @hrishi

    I thought every one of the 5 cards I mentioned would have at least some impact on Vintage and there are litany of cards that I was even higher on that have also had no impact. The reality and main point here is that most cards that are printed are bad for Vintage, and even those that pass our initial sniff test end up being bad. Its a cynical point of view, but learning from those mistakes can help you save a lot of time going down a rabbit hole of playing a card that isn't worth the time.

    Due to all the metagame shifts, I find you are just as well off, if not better, looking at decks from other more popular formats for inspirational cards or punching in random search parameters on gatherer than chasing marginal spoilers, like this one.



  • @chubbyrain said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @griselbrother Please take the time to post these quotes in context.

    Rich actually said:

    This card is actually worth considering. First, it triggers more easily than Pyromancer -- such as off Moxen. Second, the Tokens this generates themselves have Prowess. This means that you can very easily win the game with a handful of these tokens. In a way, the damage output multiples your spells from one turn with your spells for the next turn. Now, there is a huge cost when you move from 2 to 3 mana. This card might be unplayable. But it's actually a card that might be awesome.

    Rich is decidedly more optimistic on this card than you conveyed. I didn't bother checking other quotes - I was curious what my first impression was and Rich happened to be the first response in that thread. But now I'm pissed at the lack of journalistic integrity.

    Haha relax. Yes of course it's taken out of context, but the quote is still as funny as it would have been if I had quoted the whole post he made. Saying the card might be unplayable shows how wrong the evaluation was no matter what else was said.

    And honestly, I don't really think it makes his evaluation that much better that he said that it might be awesome when it should have been obvious to everyone and their dog that Mentor was gonna be completely bananas.

    If someone says that the earth might be flat, it doesn't really matter if that same person also says that the earth might be round.

    My post was never meant to be demeaning to anyone, and so I apologize if you feel offended because Rich Shay is your friend or idol or something like that, but I do think that Rich himself would just find his post hilarious.



  • @griselbrother

    1. Misrepresenting a person's words is irresponsible, regardless of intent.

    2. If your actual purpose was humor, you could have easily omitted names.

    3. It is common to mention the opposing view. If I lead with "the earth might be flat" then spend the rest of the paper talking about the support for a spherical earth, the primary message of my paper is not "the earth is flat". It's why context matters...



  • @griselbrother said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    If someone says that the earth might be flat, it doesn't really matter

    It does too matter. What if that person is a high school science teacher?



  • @hierarchnoble said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @griselbrother said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    If someone says that the earth might be flat, it doesn't really matter

    It does too matter. What if that person is a high school

    Sorry, this doesn't make any sense.



  • @griselbrother said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @hierarchnoble said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    @griselbrother said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    If someone says that the earth might be flat, it doesn't really matter

    It does too matter. What if that person is a high school

    Sorry

    You'd better be.



  • @chubbyrain Misusing commas, is, irresponsible regard,less of intent. How dare you sir,



  • I understand people gravitating towards artifact heavy decks, but Tezzeret actually makes artifacts so it's not a requirement for him to be played. Agent of Bolas NEEDS an artifact heavy decks to be even playable. This is better with more artifacts, but it's not something you need to do to play him.

    I don't think he fights for slots with Jace or Old Tezz, but with Teferi and Karn. We're getting a lot of nice walkers these days🤔



  • @fsecco I do think he fights with Jace, since they do such similar things. I agree he fights with Teferi. I also think he pretty clearly loses both, since he pretty clearly would cause the existing archetype to lose more games against the field if you replaced a Jace or Teferi with him.

    If anything, this thread (which I think is generally pretty great) reminds me that cards are, in essence, always ultimately evaluated in terms of whether they cause winning. If they don't, they just don't get played. It seems to me that is the best way to theorize too - would this thing cause a deck to win more often? Stuff like, is it better than x card, or what is its "power level" is fine. I suppose these are generally an effort to answer that question, but it seems to me these often misse the true question.



  • My actual thoughts on the card (rather than my campaign to fight against bad comparisons in card evaluation) are:

    1. Let's start with general concepts when it comes to evaluating planeswalkers. First, individual planeswalkers have significant diminishing returns with additional copies. The first JTMS might be the best possible walker you could possibly be playing at that moment. However, the second JTMS is either FoW fodder or a card to be brainstormed away. Not necessarily a dead card but certainly not as good as an additional walker you could cast and have an impact on the board, such as a Dack, Teferi, or even Arlinn. This is the first half of the ... "Superfriends theory" (I'm making up names for these concepts as we go...).

    2. The second half is that, by the nature of having several abilities, planewalkers are often capable of serving multiple strategic roles. They are not equally adept at performing these roles. To continue with JTMS, I think it is generally accepted that his Brainstorm ability is his most powerful mode. This gives Jace the primary role of a card advantage engine. His other roles are as a win condition (through Fateseal into the ultimate) and removal (the unsummon). However, if forced into these roles, Jace is suboptimal. The Modern format exemplifies how the roles Jace, or any walker, fill may be inadequate given a format's constraints. Consider Teferi, Hero of Dominaria now. Teferi also has a primary role as a card advantage engine, but is weaker than Jace as drawing a card is less powerful than Brainstorming. At the same time, Teferi is a more resilient card advantage engine given his starting loyality and uptick to draw. Teferi is also the better removal spell, as his -3 can target noncreatures, effectively puts the opponent down a card, and does not allow the opponent to recast the target the next turn. Now it might be tempting to debate which is better for Vintage by focusing on these roles, but it's not of incredible importance when it comes to deck building. Just like the diminishing returns of individual planeswalkers incentivizes more planeswalker diversity, the variable roles of planeswalkers also encourages more diversity. It means I can use JTMS as a pure card drawer, knowing that Teferi is in my deck to answer the random Oath of Druids or Planeswalker the opponent might be able to cast. Or that I will draw a Chandra or Nahiri or Arlin to actually close out the game. A name for this: "role optimization".

    3. Because of the Superfriends theory, I tend to spend much more time looking at the strategic implications of new planeswalkers and looking for synergy than I do comparing them to existing planeswalkers. So let's do that now. I think it's pretty clear that Tezz 3.0's best ability is his 0. His +1 ability combined with his starting loyalty makes him very difficult to kill the turn it comes into play in modern formats. If upticked, you are looking at 6 loyalty and a 1/1 flying blocker. It makes it likely that its controller can untap and start to take over the game. Now, this point is somewhat moot in Vintage and Legacy, where I think the majority of planeswalkers that are removed are either countered or Pyroblasted, but I try not to have tunnel vision for just Vintage, as you never know when interactions and tech from one format might find their way into Vintage. Most recent example is "Teferi + Search for Azcanta". In any case, I would classify Tezz as a strong and resilient pure card advantage engine. I think his capacity as a win condition is negligible and he really shouldn't be used for this purpose.

    4. Now what cards work really well with Tezz? Again, I tend to consider other formats when evaluating cards and I think Tezz is going to be a format defining staple in Standard. This is mostly due to the rather absurd synergy between Tezz and Karn, Scion of Urza. Karn's ideal role is pooping out constructs, making him a midrange threat or control finisher. It just so happens this mode generates Artifacts for Tezz's 0 and protects Tezz from being attacked, allowing Tezz to function as a pure card advantage engine without having to use his +1. Speaking of the +1, if drawing cards is not necessary at a certain stage of the game, assembling Thopters is much more impressive when those Thopters are pumping up Constructs. I'm actually considering buying into Standard on MTGO to explore this interaction, as it seems very powerful in the context of that format. In Vintage, it might not be powerful enough, but it's something to keep in mind in trying to find shells for Tezz.

    5. The other card that works really well with Tezz (and is actually Vintage-related) is Dack Fayden. I don't think this has been discussed in this thread, but it's something that immediately jumped out at me when I looked at Tezz. Dack's -2 ability has the effect of both increasing the amount of artifacts on your side of the board, along with ramping from 3 to 5 mana to cast Tezz the next turn. Dack's +1 also is more powerful with raw card advantage and Tezz generates that more quickly than other planeswalkers. Taken with 4, I can see a powerful Vintage shell forming around Dack, Karn, and Tezz, and that is indeed my starting point for playing this Tezz in Vintage.

    Note, I didn't really answer whether I think this card is playable. I just tried to arrive at the ideal starting point for a deck that would use this card. If I think a card is unplayable, it will generally be because I can't find a shell that really utilizes it after looking at its strategic roles and synergies. The ultimate determination of what makes a card playable in my opinion, I save for testing (which I plan to do on stream).

    If you found this approach interesting, please let me know and I will try to talk through my evaluations of other cards.



  • @chubbyrain Yep, this is perfect. Tezz doesn't need an artifact based deck like Thoughcast does. You don't need to play Seat of the Synod or Mishra's Bauble or whatever to make Tezz good. Nice post.



  • @chubbyrain the Dack/Karn/Tezz set up you described sounds like a pure advantage version of Outcome to me. No Mentor, no tutors, maybe not even Vault/Key or Tinker/Robot. Just walkers, counterspells, and card draws. Is that good? I have no idea.



  • @wfain Maybe it's loose, but if that's the route you're going, Sai seems reasonable. Allows you to have a Mentor style plan without stretching the mana at all, and has better synergy with your Outcome plan than Pyromancer if you're still in the market for that effect.



  • @chubbyrain I like your overall analysis. I was trying to figure out if this new card fits into a different shell. The Mardu Planeswalkers from SCG Con ran these walkers

    1 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
    2 Karn, Scion of Urza
    1 Liliana of the Veil

    Could Tezz fit into this shell of a more aggro build with Daretti? I want to get away from the classic blue white slow grind with cards like this and into more a board presence tempo style of play.

    Anyway, just a thought.



  • @chubbyrain said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    My actual thoughts on the card (rather than my campaign to fight against bad comparisons in card evaluation) are: ....
    If you found this approach interesting, please let me know and I will try to talk through my evaluations of other cards.

    Exemplary post. Nice job, Matt.



  • @ChubbyRain I think the Tezz + Karn interaction 100% needs to be explored. I took a Jeskai deck with a single Karn to day 2 at SCG snd it had some big Day 1 moments, including stealing a game rd 7 vs Eldrazi by valuing out a 4/4 then two 5/5s. Karn does not need to be spilling 20/20s on the board to be good. Getting solid bodies by just playing moxen and the ability to selectively filter cards make him very playable. The relationship is too symbiotic not to try.



  • @chubbyrain said in [M19] Tezzeret, Artifice Master:

    My actual thoughts on the card (rather than my campaign to fight against bad comparisons in card evaluation) are:

    1. Let's start with general concepts when it comes to evaluating planeswalkers. First, individual planeswalkers have significant diminishing returns with additional copies. The first JTMS might be the best possible walker you could possibly be playing at that moment. However, the second JTMS is either FoW fodder or a card to be brainstormed away. Not necessarily a dead card but certainly not as good as an additional walker you could cast and have an impact on the board, such as a Dack, Teferi, or even Arlinn. This is the first half of the ... "Superfriends theory" (I'm making up names for these concepts as we go...).

    2. The second half is that, by the nature of having several abilities, planewalkers are often capable of serving multiple strategic roles. They are not equally adept at performing these roles. To continue with JTMS, I think it is generally accepted that his Brainstorm ability is his most powerful mode. This gives Jace the primary role of a card advantage engine. His other roles are as a win condition (through Fateseal into the ultimate) and removal (the unsummon). However, if forced into these roles, Jace is suboptimal. The Modern format exemplifies how the roles Jace, or any walker, fill may be inadequate given a format's constraints. Consider Teferi, Hero of Dominaria now. Teferi also has a primary role as a card advantage engine, but is weaker than Jace as drawing a card is less powerful than Brainstorming. At the same time, Teferi is a more resilient card advantage engine given his starting loyality and uptick to draw. Teferi is also the better removal spell, as his -3 can target noncreatures, effectively puts the opponent down a card, and does not allow the opponent to recast the target the next turn. Now it might be tempting to debate which is better for Vintage by focusing on these roles, but it's not of incredible importance when it comes to deck building. Just like the diminishing returns of individual planeswalkers incentivizes more planeswalker diversity, the variable roles of planeswalkers also encourages more diversity. It means I can use JTMS as a pure card drawer, knowing that Teferi is in my deck to answer the random Oath of Druids or Planeswalker the opponent might be able to cast. Or that I will draw a Chandra or Nahiri or Arlin to actually close out the game. A name for this: "role optimization".

    3. Because of the Superfriends theory, I tend to spend much more time looking at the strategic implications of new planeswalkers and looking for synergy than I do comparing them to existing planeswalkers. So let's do that now. I think it's pretty clear that Tezz 3.0's best ability is his 0. His +1 ability combined with his starting loyalty makes him very difficult to kill the turn it comes into play in modern formats. If upticked, you are looking at 6 loyalty and a 1/1 flying blocker. It makes it likely that its controller can untap and start to take over the game. Now, this point is somewhat moot in Vintage and Legacy, where I think the majority of planeswalkers that are removed are either countered or Pyroblasted, but I try not to have tunnel vision for just Vintage, as you never know when interactions and tech from one format might find their way into Vintage. Most recent example is "Teferi + Search for Azcanta". In any case, I would classify Tezz as a strong and resilient pure card advantage engine. I think his capacity as a win condition is negligible and he really shouldn't be used for this purpose.

    4. Now what cards work really well with Tezz? Again, I tend to consider other formats when evaluating cards and I think Tezz is going to be a format defining staple in Standard. This is mostly due to the rather absurd synergy between Tezz and Karn, Scion of Urza. Karn's ideal role is pooping out constructs, making him a midrange threat or control finisher. It just so happens this mode generates Artifacts for Tezz's 0 and protects Tezz from being attacked, allowing Tezz to function as a pure card advantage engine without having to use his +1. Speaking of the +1, if drawing cards is not necessary at a certain stage of the game, assembling Thopters is much more impressive when those Thopters are pumping up Constructs. I'm actually considering buying into Standard on MTGO to explore this interaction, as it seems very powerful in the context of that format. In Vintage, it might not be powerful enough, but it's something to keep in mind in trying to find shells for Tezz.

    5. The other card that works really well with Tezz (and is actually Vintage-related) is Dack Fayden. I don't think this has been discussed in this thread, but it's something that immediately jumped out at me when I looked at Tezz. Dack's -2 ability has the effect of both increasing the amount of artifacts on your side of the board, along with ramping from 3 to 5 mana to cast Tezz the next turn. Dack's +1 also is more powerful with raw card advantage and Tezz generates that more quickly than other planeswalkers. Taken with 4, I can see a powerful Vintage shell forming around Dack, Karn, and Tezz, and that is indeed my starting point for playing this Tezz in Vintage.

    Note, I didn't really answer whether I think this card is playable. I just tried to arrive at the ideal starting point for a deck that would use this card. If I think a card is unplayable, it will generally be because I can't find a shell that really utilizes it after looking at its strategic roles and synergies. The ultimate determination of what makes a card playable in my opinion, I save for testing (which I plan to do on stream).

    If you found this approach interesting, please let me know and I will try to talk through my evaluations of other cards.

    Great post. That really sets the bar for how card evaluations should be done. This new Tezzeret also has great synergy with Tezzeret 2.0.



  • I think the combination of

    2 Karn, Scion of Urza
    1 Tezzeret, Artifice Master
    2 Dack Fayden
    1 Daretti Ingenious Iconoclast

    is definitely a new planes walker package worth considering over the more traditional

    2 Jace, the Minsculptor
    1 Tezzeret, the Seeker
    2 Dack Fayden
    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic key

    in Grixis control decks.

    The newer set takes up less card space, stays on mana curve, has much better board presence for a control deck, much better synergy, and fewer dead cards. Although it looses the occasional Tez, the Seeker into vault or vault/key oops I win factor, it has less variance and more utility as each of the newer cards are good by themselves, where as time vault by itself is bad, key is not great, and Tez is ok without vault if you can get enough artifacts to ultimate or find utility artifacts as needed.

    I have been testing the above package in an otherwise normal Grixis control list (with a bit more artifact mana/ancient tomb and especially Tolarian Academy) with Tinker and Myr Battlesphere as the tinker target, which is also amazing for pumping Karn constructs, for drawing 2 with new Tez, and producing artifacts to sac to Daretti. Not to mention, few things are more fun than ultimating Daretti on Battlesphere for 3 copies. Finally, although @ChubbyRain already mentioned the synergy of Dack, Tez, and Karn, Daretti is actually a great choice for control decks too as he provides a permanent immune to pyroblast that repeatedly destroys artifacts or oath targets over a long game without spending mana and is very synergistic with the aforementioned cards. Finally, I'm not sure anyone has mentioned Myr battlesphere yet as the tinker target in this kind of deck, though the synergy there is pretty powerful from pumping constructs, keeping new Tez at draw 2, or providing a great target for Daretti's or Tez's ultimate.

    I would love to hear what others have discovered in play testing too, but i think there is something to these cards in combination worth exploring.

    Marc
    PS - Sorry for the stream of consciousness post, but I'm severely sleep-deprived at the moment.



  • @moorebrother1 So, I played the Mardu list on stream and chatted with the deck's creator, Josh Meckes. The Angrath and Liliana did not survive to make the next version. In my experience, they just didn't match up well against the other decks in the format. Most decks are going wide with token makers or cheap artifact creatures and the blue decks have more than enough card draw to overcome the discard. Josh reached a similar conclusion. The deck isn't really that aggressive, though. It can have quick TKS starts but it's often more grindy. Tezz might work but you'd have to change the manabase considerably to get double blue into it and that would likely cost the deck it's identity. Here is the updated list, btw:

    alt text

    Daretti was very hit or miss and I have mixed opinions on him. He can take over the game against creature decks but he's bad against Oath and doesn't interact with opposing Walkers well. Literally, one game I sat there and ultimated him twice because neither of use were doing anything. My target was Sorcerous Spyglass both times and I ended up just naming every Blue fetch to mana screw my opponent. He's ignorable by many decks. That said, he has synergy with Karn and Tezz. I think as a 1 of, he could be part of a grixis walker deck with a base like @marcb mentioned. Just realize that Daretti is mostly a removal spell and will be boarded out against many decks.


 

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